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Author
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Topic: Vortech Questions
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LAST302
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Member # 808
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posted
 
 
This pertains to my 95 GT with a healthy built 306 with a vortech s-trim with 10#, afm powerpipe. What is the deal with intercoolers? Goods, bads, are they available for my year? Also, I see people with these expensive "racing bypass or blowoff valves." Please explain some of this to me and if there are any benefits. As it stands my car is putting 466 to the wheels and I know what an intercooler will do but is air to air better and is it available? As for the blow off valves, well help me out. Thanks in advance.
Posts: 1147 | From: Disco Bay | Registered: Jan 2002
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DementedGT
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Member # 1463
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posted
Air 2 Air intercoolers are better for street use. Air 2 water work better on the track, if you pack it with ice water before each run.
As for BOV's.. still learning myself on this topic, but from what i know they release the boost that would normally be pushed into your engine while shifting & times when you dont want the boost entering the engine.. When you have the bov it'll release the boost, which will in turn put less wear on the engine..
*disclaimor*
I could be off a bit.. but thats my understanding of it.
Posts: 275 | From: SF Bay Area, CA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
At your boost level, you won't see anything from an intercooler or larger blow off valve. If you want more power easily right now.... a smaller blower pulley or larger crank pulley is the best way to go.
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
might want to check this out too.... Interesting concept. Do a search on corral for it too, many users of the concept there. www.snowperformance.net
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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TRY2PAZ
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Member # 97
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posted
Matters what you want. The vortech aftercooler is good for track use, WHen you are ready to go down the track, you drop in the ice, usually good for 30 rwhp,
the air-2-air is great for everyday driving or road racing. Bothe will slow down your boost so you will have to pulley uit down.b
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http://www.fnsweet.com/pics/events/sj_gtg_1020/sj_gtg1020_30.jpg
Posts: 4033 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2000
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LAST302
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Member # 808
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posted
I am not necessarily looking for more power, I just want everything and every part to be in place to make the motor as healthy and long lasting reliable as possible. I am very meticulous and if there is an upgrade that will make things more efficient that is what I am looking for. Thanks for the info!!
Posts: 1147 | From: Disco Bay | Registered: Jan 2002
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
Problem is that the Vortech isn't making the air that hot at your boost level. If you add an intercooler or after cooler, the gains from the cooler air won't make up for the loss of boost and you'll actually end up losing power. If you want the motor to last a long time, run a little less base timing as an insurance to prevent detonation.
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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LAST302
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Member # 808
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Problem is that the Vortech isn't making the air that hot at your boost level. If you add an intercooler or after cooler, the gains from the cooler air won't make up for the loss of boost and you'll actually end up losing power. If you want the motor to last a long time, run a little less base timing as an insurance to prevent detonation.
Thanks bro! Not having any detonation problems but i know it is something to watch or should I say listen for. Thanks again.
Posts: 1147 | From: Disco Bay | Registered: Jan 2002
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Elapid
GOROBGO
Member # 50
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posted
hey sawson, stick your tongue on his outlet pipe after a 1/4 mile run and THEN tell me he isn't creating heat!
compressing air creates heat, remember the gas law, P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2
you can see easily that @ constant volume, the temperature of a gas is directly proportional to the pressure. doubling the pressure doubles the temperature in other words.
let's say you are driving around Sac on a 110* day, if you create 10 psi, your intake charge will be approximately (24/14)1.7 times higher than ambient...approximately 187* at full boost on the hypothetical 110* day. I'm sure in reality the intake charge would be a bit higher since the engine/supercharger, etc are hot and donate some heat to the intake air beyond just the physical compression of the air.
i think an intercooler is a good investment for the longevity of your motor and will allow you to run more timing or higher a:f without detonation if you desire.
4 words
why the hell not!
I'm going to put one on mine just for safety's sake...
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98 Cobra
83 Notch rolling chassis - fs
Posts: 1797 | From: Grass Valley, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Problem is that the Vortech isn't making the air that hot at your boost level. If you add an intercooler or after cooler, the gains from the cooler air won't make up for the loss of boost and you'll actually end up losing power. If you want the motor to last a long time, run a little less base timing as an insurance to prevent detonation.
That's rediculous.
The pressure drop from the intercooler/aftercooler is due to less heat...thus the air is denser. No power loss will be seen from the drop in pressure. The same amount of air is entering the motor. It's all about the mass-air flow, not boost! The cooler air-charge will allow more timing.....increasing power.
& at 10psi.....that think is cooking the air!
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
I've heard that the physical obstruction of an intercooler/aftercooler is worth 2 PSI in itself.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shade-tree:
I've heard that the physical obstruction of an intercooler/aftercooler is worth 2 PSI in itself.
It can be measured. Simply measure the pressure just after the blower before the intercooler/aftercooler is installed. Then measure at the same sorce after the intercooler/aftercooler is installed. If the pressure increases, there is definate backpressure from the intercooler.... But it really depends on the design as to how much, if any, backpressure will be present. Size of the cooler & the airflow your running also plays a big factor.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
Come on guys, everyone knows that a 10 psi S trim car will LOSE HP if ALL you do is add an intercooler. Give all the false tech you want against this, but you can't agrue with results.
Rob- your example is flawed. The simple equation you setup assumes only one variable changes. If this was the case, I'd agree with you and your simple mathmatical model would hold true. In reality, an intercooler drops both temprature AND pressure (boost). This makes your mathmatical model more complicated and also useless with out real world data/numbers to plug into the equation.
Some random food for though: the gas and air are ignited into a hot FLAME well over 1,000 degrees F ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
93pony- "The pressure drop from the intercooler/aftercooler is due to less heat...thus the air is denser. No power loss will be seen from the drop in pressure." ![[BS flag]](graemlins/bs_flag.gif) Sounds like shady corral tech to me (read my new signature). I can prove your statement wrong with straight equations or real world examples, your pick. As a gentleman, I'm letting you pick how I knott your noose ![[Wink]](wink.gif) j/k
Now here is your mission, go to www.yahoo.com and find the one guy out in cyberspace raceway that refutes what I said above
[ March 04, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
If you run an intercooler, and you pulley it to the same PSI you were running before, then you get the best of both worlds cooler charge, less tendancy for detonation, ability to run higher boost, etc.
I *think* most people do it this way.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
Shade-tree- Yes, most people with out outrageous interpretations of Physics do it this way Even then, at 10 psi, the gains are very small and not worth while. For the $1000+ will cost you, you're much better off spending that money elsewhere. *cough* headwork *cough* just a smaller pulley.
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
The major issue I would have with fitting a vortech aftercooler (or an intercooler if you have even more beans) is cost. For the money, I would get the smaller pulley and the spend the rest of the dough on big fuel components...that would seem safer to me... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Phil
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Shade-tree- Yes, most people with out outrageous interpretations of Physics do it this way Even then, at 10 psi, the gains are very small and not worth while. For the $1000+ will cost you, you're much better off spending that money elsewhere. *cough* headwork *cough* just a smaller pulley.
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2013 Shelby GT500
2011 Porsche 911 TurboS/AWD
2014 GSXR750
2002 GSXR750 Track Beater Bike
2016 Explorer Unlimted
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
I think you can snag junkyard intercoolers for like $50-$100 each no? Like from a busted DSM (talon/eclipse/laser) call it ghetto but just take it to a muffler shop (seriously) have them bend some tubing and there you go, lol.
but yeah, pick up a magazine (say MM&FF) and slap down $1500 and they'll probably mail you a perfect fitting intercooler setup.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Elapid
GOROBGO
Member # 50
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posted
that simple mathematical model (Ideal Gas Law)is one i learned while earning my associate degree in chemistry and is much more easily applied than PV=nRT, right?
Cooler air is denser, denser air makes more power, more power =
is that equation good enough?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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98 Cobra
83 Notch rolling chassis - fs
Posts: 1797 | From: Grass Valley, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
I don't think this discussion has devolved into quantum chemistry
however, for certain, you are not dealing with a fixed volume.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Elapid
GOROBGO
Member # 50
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posted
it (the volume change) only contributes to increased kinetic entergy (heat).
you can see from the same equation that T is inversely proportional to volume, i.e. smaller volume = greater Temperature
you can run from physics and chemistry, but you cannot HIDE!
thankfully, you don't have to understand how a car works to go fast, but it sure HELPS!
[ March 04, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: rob ]
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98 Cobra
83 Notch rolling chassis - fs
Posts: 1797 | From: Grass Valley, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
no all I'm saying is we don't have a controlled environment like the cylinder in an internal combustion engine where compression ratios and PV=nRT are almost 100% accurate (unless you're driving ST5150's car and have ~30% leakdown or whatever.... (obligatory) )
in a compressor/intercooler arrangement there is no defined cylinder, you have air moving continually in/out of a system where you can *approximate* a volume but you have first and second harmonics, pulses, waves, vibration and at the end of the day even individual impeller blades will contribute to a delta V.
I'll I'm trying to say is that in this system the volume is not absolute, but rather must be approximated.
PV=nRT will tell you basically what's going on in this situation though, again, all I'm trying to say is volume is not fixed so PV=nRT is out the window....
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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BCINGUU
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Member # 2397
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posted
I run 14 psi of boost on my S-trim, and my ACT goes as high as 260 degrees at full boost. I'm running alcohol injection, which is cheaper than an intercooler or nitrous, and it drops the ACT down in the low 100s.
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93 Cobra #4563 347ci 12.0@118 505rwhp 524tq
90 GT "Saleen Cobra" style convertible 347ci
67 GT "Eleanor" style coupe 347ci
Posts: 1425 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Come on guys, everyone knows that a 10 psi S trim car will LOSE HP if ALL you do is add an intercooler. Give all the false tech you want against this, but you can't agrue with results.
Rob- your example is flawed. The simple equation you setup assumes only one variable changes. If this was the case, I'd agree with you and your simple mathmatical model would hold true. In reality, an intercooler drops both temprature AND pressure (boost). This makes your mathmatical model more complicated and also useless with out real world data/numbers to plug into the equation.
Some random food for though: the gas and air are ignited into a hot FLAME well over 1,000 degrees F
93pony- "The pressure drop from the intercooler/aftercooler is due to less heat...thus the air is denser. No power loss will be seen from the drop in pressure." Sounds like shady corral tech to me (read my new signature). I can prove your statement wrong with straight equations or real world examples, your pick. As a gentleman, I'm letting you pick how I knott your noose j/k
Now here is your mission, go to www.yahoo.com and find the one guy out in cyberspace raceway that refutes what I said above
With ONLY installing the intercooler you WILL gain power. The blower is still pumping out the exact same amount of air as it was before....& the engine is ingesting the same MASS of air....it's just cooler & thus more dense.
Here's the only thing. If you run an intercooler that's a bit small for the mass of air running through it, the air BEFORE the intercooler will have a higher pressure (higher boost) then before & will be hotter then the air was without the intercooler. Follow me?
So, the intercooler needs to work harder to cool the air...if it is not very effecient & the cooler is too small, the air coming out to the motor will not be much cooler + they're be a substantial pressure drop. This will definately cause the power to drop.
Slap on the right size Spearco & watch power jump....with less boost. It's all about the cooler you use.
Ah yes. You also pointed out another benifit to the Incon setup (or any turbo for that mater). No pulley change needed. The wastegates open when manifold pressure reaches a certain PSI. A cooler charge will make GOBS more power as the mass of air also increases....unlike a SC unless the pulley is changed. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
Consider a household vacuum cleaner with a 3' extension and standard pickup.
Is it drawing the same volume of air as when you have a 6' extension and the same pickup? Of course not
Your argument seems to be the 'motor is still spinning the same speed, so it should be drawing the same amount of air.', and you'd be wrong.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
My argument is simply this:
Which is better given the SAME mass of air output from the blower?
High boost & high aircharge temp
or
Low boost & low aircharge temp
Which of these 2 setups will make more power?
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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