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Topic: which heads??
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sleeping stallion
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Member # 8162
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308 I'd have to dig out the dyno sheet to see exact power band
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1990 coupe HCI Boost
SEMPER FIDELIS
Posts: 1650 | From: Modesto ca | Registered: Jan 2008
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Blow_U_In_Reverse
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Member # 12298
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Originally posted by sleeping stallion:
308 I'd have to dig out the dyno sheet to see exact power band
0o wow mid 400's is pretty good for 5psi.. what compression is your motor??
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"Real Men Get BLOWN"
-1993 Cobra "COBRUUH"
-1984 T-Top Notchback
#KurganTuned
Posts: 2688 | From: FiJi-925-650 | Registered: Aug 2012
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sleeping stallion
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Member # 8162
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9 to1 dan did a great job on it it's my daily it's going back to dyno so I can get my 460rwhp
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1990 coupe HCI Boost
SEMPER FIDELIS
Posts: 1650 | From: Modesto ca | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mr.10psi
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Member # 11062
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
Well the best flowing heads are AFR 165 if memory serves me for small fords. And as far as PV clearance it is a must to check it. My experience with small fords is anything over 480-500 total lift is getting real critical. naturally there are several variables like deck height head milling cams size of the valves and cam overall specks degreeing and overlap and duration. But with a cam that is at or below 500 and AFR heads on 10 Lbs of boost it will be a stretch to obtain 400 WHP. Other than that make sure you check PV clearance and keep the lobe centers at or around 110-112* I would go for a cam of at least 560-580L and make sure you check the PV CLEARANCE especially on that engine,VJ heads in my view are better for more cubes and i would not hesitate one minute to use them and cut the pistons. But AFR has some other heads that will do the job nicely. But you need more lift than 500. Good luck and use a bigger cam @ 500 you are limited to @ or around 400 MAX
Guess i havent made it clear enough lol, but piston to valve clearance has nothing to do with valve lift/total valve or any lift of that matter. Lift doesnt do anything to clearance. If you think so, then you must not know valve events. Duration overlap lsa are the main ingredients, then milling and decking but certainly not lift whatsoever.
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02 white saleen(sold) 347 stroker in the works
Posts: 1337 | From: 530 | Registered: Jul 2011
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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Do you really think i do not know that!! Intake closest @ or around 10* ATDC. Exhaust @ or about 10* BTDC. I cut these pistons for a special application. As the pistons for this engine are obsolete. I had to reduce the compression to make them work. Here is the results.
OVERLAP>>> This is the time when both the intake and the exhaust valves are open simultaneously.This is when PV is critical. With bigger valves and X overlap that is the danger point. Increasing lift always increases the chance of a wrecked motor from clearance issues. It has to be checked and i do it on every engine we build. Now there are engines that are known to be safe with certain combinations but checking is a must. Hope i cleared that up.
Sometimes you really have to get crazy
[ 2014-01-01, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Mr.10psi
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Member # 11062
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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
Do you really think i do not know that!! Intake closest @ or around 10* ATDC. Exhaust @ or about 10* BTDC. I cut these pistons for a special application. As the pistons for this engine are obsolete. I had to reduce the compression to make them work. Here is the results.
OVERLAP>>> This is the time when both the intake and the exhaust valves are open simultaneously.This is when PV is critical. With bigger valves and X overlap that is the danger point. Increasing lift always increases the chance of a wrecked motor from clearance issues. It has to be checked and i do it on every engine we build. Now there are engines that are known to be safe with certain combinations but checking is a must. Hope i cleared that up.
Sometimes you really have to get crazy
Ill make it simple. Increasing lift doesnt effect or increases chances whatsoever period. The rest of what you said is right.
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02 white saleen(sold) 347 stroker in the works
Posts: 1337 | From: 530 | Registered: Jul 2011
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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WELL got this from the speck sheets from several cam manufacturer for checking PV clearance.
If you are going to use rocker arms with a higher than stock rocker ratio now or in the future, you will need to check piston to valve clearance with the higher ratio rocker at this time. (Higher ratio rockers increase gross valve lift). And can decrease piston to valve clearance.
Here is another engine builder that just does ford engines. QUOTE!!
Most ford engines with a valve lift of less than .500" should be good to go in regards to P/V clearance. If higher lifts are anticipated you should check the piston to valve clearance on Ford engines.
Thank you
[ 2014-01-01, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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yeah i gona say even if the pistons are made for the heads u still gotta watch valve to pistons, but normally like 600 or above regardless it matters a lot.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mr.10psi
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Member # 11062
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
WELL got this from the speck sheets from several cam manufacturer for checking PV clearance.
If you are going to use rocker arms with a higher than stock rocker ratio now or in the future, you will need to check piston to valve clearance with the higher ratio rocker at this time. (Higher ratio rockers increase gross valve lift). And can decrease piston to valve clearance.
Here is another engine builder that just does ford engines. QUOTE!!
Most ford engines with a valve lift of less than .500" should be good to go in regards to P/V clearance. If higher lifts are anticipated you should check the piston to valve clearance on Ford engines.
Thank you
dude just give up, your knowledge on cams is making you look ignorant. Where do you think the piston is at during max valve lift which is why clearance is irrelevant. What do you think its doing at max valve lift? As far as the engine builder that you quoted that only builds ford engines, i would run away as far as i could from that guy, and whats especially sad is that he builds only ford engines and doesnt know this. Face palm. Your need to get away from the old outdated prehistoric tech bad info that is passed around like this max valve lift crap. Ed curtis one who is very knowleagable was laughing his ass off when trickflow said that max lift over 600 was not gonna work with a stock set of pistons and small trickflow 170cc. Yet he ended up putting 605 on both the intake and exhaust side. But no, trickflow is a manufacturer and they know everything. Blah blah blah.
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02 white saleen(sold) 347 stroker in the works
Posts: 1337 | From: 530 | Registered: Jul 2011
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Mr.10psi
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Member # 11062
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quote:
Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.
I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan
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02 white saleen(sold) 347 stroker in the works
Posts: 1337 | From: 530 | Registered: Jul 2011
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NEIGHT
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Member # 8741
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Put some GT40's N keep the stock springs on it Fiji. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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-Savage Habits-
1992 Summer Edition
1986 Hatch- catfish killer
1964 Impala hard top
Posts: 18530 | From: EA$T $IDE REDWOOD CITY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Blow_U_In_Reverse
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Member # 12298
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Originally posted by NEIGHT:
Put some GT40's N keep the stock springs on it Fiji.
GOOD advice bro.. FINALLY someone with some good input! Lmao ![[dance]](graemlins/dance.gif)
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"Real Men Get BLOWN"
-1993 Cobra "COBRUUH"
-1984 T-Top Notchback
#KurganTuned
Posts: 2688 | From: FiJi-925-650 | Registered: Aug 2012
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1fastmach1
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Member # 10137
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.10psi:
quote:
Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.
I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan
LMFAO yes lift can cause ptv clearance issues so your saying a cam with over 550 -575 lift will work on stock pistons ur smoking crack yes lift is not the major factor duration and lsa is but still when ever putting a cam in it should be clayed and checked for clearance
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REDLINE MOTORSPORTS CC EST 2011
1993 CHP sold
2004 mach 1 408 Windsor n20 fed
R.I.P. JORGE GUTIERREZ JR
6/13/1982- 11/05/2013
Posts: 2592 | From: clawwwitter to 7th st | Registered: Jul 2010
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Mr.10psi
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Member # 11062
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 79 cobra:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.10psi:
quote:
Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.
I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan
LMFAO yes lift can cause ptv clearance issues so your saying a cam with over 550 -575 lift will work on stock pistons ur smoking crack yes lift is not the major factor duration and lsa is but still when ever putting a cam in it should be clayed and checked for clearance
i suggest you give not any advice on cams at all. instead of listening to your friends why dont you listen to the pros such as ed curtis. Oh by the way i would run 600 plus lift on stock pistons. Just got to know the overlap and other specs. Not one concern would be given to peak lift lmao, what a joke. Ask shaun at aed since no one will believe me in here till he comes in saying the same shit. Better yet i will show you proof of one of ed curtis cams on stock pistons and ed curtis himself backing up and along with his customer making trickflow and mike at sfc look retarded.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/336539-stock-bottom-end-trick-flow-stage-2-cam.html
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1384943-trick-flow-58cc-fac-170s-stock-shortblock-f-cam-%3D-nope-2.html
Time for sum schooling rookie. Enjoy the reading.
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02 white saleen(sold) 347 stroker in the works
Posts: 1337 | From: 530 | Registered: Jul 2011
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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PSI stop making yourself LOOK SILLY. I have checked hundreds of cams over the 48 years in business. AND YOU??
Piston to valve clearance
Piston to valve clearance is determined by cam lift, lobe separation, duration, valve margin, head design, and aftermarket milling of cylinder head.
Minimum recommended clearance for intake & exhaust valve would be 0.100" in all directions. Check using clay or follow cam manufacturers
recommendations for checking clearance, making sure the cam is degreed exactly as it will be during operation. The instillation of different rocker ratios increase lift and decrease piston to valve clearance on cams previously checked ok.
[ 2014-01-19, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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ItzStock
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Member # 9665
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If you are running boost the size of the head isnt that important. Especially if its just a mild setup.
Look at Stanglers car. He is running a "302" head on a 393w.
393, trickflow 170s and a turbo running bottom 9s. That should say enough right there. Forced induction is different than N/A
Posts: 1394 | From: Vallejo, Ca | Registered: Dec 2009
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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Yes because winded motors run wide cam centers and low durations. here is a CRANE engineers answer to a question he received by a ford owner wanting PV clearance answers'
The Crane 2030 is a pretty good cam. It's very similar to the CompCams XE270HR-12 and it'll go well with the Eddy heads/intake. You'll need to check the piston-to-valve clearance though 'cause those 2.02 intake valves are gonna come awefully close to the pistons. The cam is very mild with low to moderate lift. Anytime you increase lift you have more lift @ OVERLAP. Crane engineering
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Mr.10psi
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Member # 11062
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Tom renzo, pretty sad that in the 48 years in the business you still dont know didly squat really? Did you even read the link i posted. Ed curtis, is a lot smarter than some outdated ass crane engineer who which noone ever uses unless your some white haired 50 year old stuck in the e cam days and 3/4 cams. ED curtis's customer put that trickflow and other guy into perspective. Guess i should tell the customer of ed curtis and ed curtis himself that he needs to pull out the cam becuz of lift causing piston to valve clearance even though hes running 605 lift on pistons. Oh not to mention hes running 10s with a stock 302 shortblock!!!
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02 white saleen(sold) 347 stroker in the works
Posts: 1337 | From: 530 | Registered: Jul 2011
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Saleen 00-768
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Member # 9379
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
I found a guy on SVT Performance in the Cobra R section claiming 420rwhp with his stock 351 R motor with just a S-trim. Hard to believe!!
really? would you believe me if I told you a 302 with untouched gt40s and cobra intake made 420RWHP with an s-trim then got it smogged later after the dyno
edit: on 91 octane
[ 2014-01-20, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]
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'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)
Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009
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1fastmach1
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Member # 10137
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.10psi:
quote:
Originally posted by 79 cobra:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.10psi:
quote:
Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift,but normallyfor super high lift cams in that scenario.
I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan
LMFAO yes lift can cause ptv clearance issues so your saying a cam with over 550 -575 lift will work on stock pistons ur smoking crack yes lift is not the major factor duration and lsa is but still when ever putting a cam in it should be clayed and checked for clearance
i suggest you give not any advice on cams at all. instead of listening to your friends why dont you listen to the pros such as ed curtis. Oh by the way i would run 600 plus lift on stock pistons. Just got to know the overlap and other specs. Not one concern would be given to peak lift lmao, what a joke. Ask shaun at aed since no one will believe me in here till he comes in saying the same shit. Better yet i will show you proof of one of ed curtis cams on stock pistons and ed curtis himself backing up and along with his customer making trickflow and mike at sfc look retarded.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/336539-stock-bottom-end-trick-flow-stage-2-cam.html
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1384943-trick-flow-58cc-fac-170s-stock-shortblock-f-cam-%3D-nope-2.html
Time for sum schooling rookie. Enjoy the reading.
Lol listening to my friends my friends ask me theses questions garentee I know what im talking about and like I said yes lift is not the major factor its over lap and duration and lsa dont care what any cam manufacturer says I always check my piston to valve clearance better safe than sorry and like to have .125 on the exuast and .100 on the intake any thing below that is too close in my opinion and Ive seen what happens when a valve slaps there goes ur block head and piston did it on a trickflow stage 2 cam with afr 185 2.02 valve with 1.72 rr on stock 91 pistons and bam first time I took it to 6000 rpm motor blew and locked upp
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REDLINE MOTORSPORTS CC EST 2011
1993 CHP sold
2004 mach 1 408 Windsor n20 fed
R.I.P. JORGE GUTIERREZ JR
6/13/1982- 11/05/2013
Posts: 2592 | From: clawwwitter to 7th st | Registered: Jul 2010
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1fastmach1
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Member # 10137
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.10psi:
Tom renzo, pretty sad that in the 48 years in the business you still dont know didly squat really? Did you even read the link i posted. Ed curtis, is a lot smarter than some outdated ass crane engineer who which noone ever uses unless your some white haired 50 year old stuck in the e cam days and 3/4 cams. ED curtis's customer put that trickflow and other guy into perspective. Guess i should tell the customer of ed curtis and ed curtis himself that he needs to pull out the cam becuz of lift causing piston to valve clearance even though hes running 605 lift on pistons. Oh not to mention hes running 10s with a stock 302 shortblock!!!
and get off ed curtis nuts didnt no he could hold that much weight lol
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REDLINE MOTORSPORTS CC EST 2011
1993 CHP sold
2004 mach 1 408 Windsor n20 fed
R.I.P. JORGE GUTIERREZ JR
6/13/1982- 11/05/2013
Posts: 2592 | From: clawwwitter to 7th st | Registered: Jul 2010
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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OK PSI lets say you have a cam with 1.5 rockers and lets say the PV clearance is .080 > Installing lets say 1.7 rockers you are claiming the PV clearance does not change?? Fascinating as the higher ratio of the 1.7 rockers decreases the PV clearance across the board. Simple math dictates that. Fascinating how people do not use common sense.You might be right but i have made a hell of a lot of PONIES over those 48 years and still in business. By the way what the hell is a 3/4 CAM ? Does that mean it is 3/4 of WHAT?? Thank you PSI.
When using roller cams the acceleration ramps are much faster than flat tappet cams. So without messing with certain specks of a cam other than lift you are correct in a way!!! But normally to achieve those higher lifts normally the overlap is effected. And valve events as well. My example with the 1.5- 1.7 rockers clearly point that out. The rockers do not change anything other then the lift events and amounts. So think about what yu are saying and please refrain from insults. Otherwise i just might have to post some photos of my handy work. Thank you PSI!! +
Just for kicks.
3/4 cams were normally phrased by the flathead guys and spilled over to the overhead guys. No specks were given on the grinds as i was plotting those cams some time back. It was just a comparison to a stock cam of some lift and duration. The phrase does not tell you any specks on a particular cam. You need to know the stock configuration for comparison. A meaningless TERM in cam specks!! I have not heard this phrase in years!
What's a 3/4 Race Cam?
In the early 1950's the most popular original camshaft designers were the legendary Ed Winfield, the father of hotrodding, and Cliff Collins of Harman-Collins. If you look a Huntington's 1951 book you will find the specs for their cams listed. We've also listed some of their cams on our Flathead Performance Cams page. There were lots of cam grinders that copied Winfield and Harman-Collins cams, but these two were the designers and innovators in the early days. It was popular to refer to cams as a 1/2 Race or Semi grind and a Full Race grind. Later, there was a call for an intermediate grind between these two. To fill this demand, Ed Winfield took the intake lobe from his full race cam and the exhaust lobe from his semi cam and called it a 3/4 Race cam (see Flathead Performance Cams). It was literally half way between a full race and 1/2 race cam. Since that time, 3/4 Race has become a generic term for a high performance street cam, i.e. something less than a race cam.
[ 2014-01-21, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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Posted by an old guy with 48 years turning wrenches. I THINK!!! My memory is fading a BIT PSI!! Does this car look familiar to you PSI??? Just thought i would share a photo with you. Thanks again!!
[ 2014-01-21, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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