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Topic: Anybody run the E cam 4 degrees retarded?
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bwkelley76
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Member # 8792
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Casey pretty much already got his answer but I'll allow him to speak for himself on that.
I think it's funny that everyone keeps plugging a dead thread. I really have no need to say anything nor do I care but I'm a little bored at the moment so here goes. I can rattle on about nonsense just as good as the next guy.
I like the stroked 351 Idea actually, depending on which combo you use, it's actually not a bad combo. Obviously too much motor for what Casey wants, as may even be the case with the 331.
The only reason any of this even started was because I stated that the 347 was not my choice of motor and "Superman 347-boy" decided to become the poster child and defend it, and then boast about his buddy's combo and called me out on the table and tried to prove me wrong about why "I" like the 331 better than the 347. How can someone prove me wrong about my own preference? LOL
It's my opinion, if you don't like it move on. I believe I stated my case quite well, especially with casey's needs in mind.
No one has told anyone how to build a motor here either.
As far as my education goes I appreciate that you folks are interested in what I'm doing in my project/fun class while I further my automotive knowledge and experience. My past experience can speak for itself and most of you will never know what I've done over the years as I feel no need to brag about it. My future experience has plenty more to come.
Just because I'm currently back in school don't be too quick to judge my abilities either. I hope you all enjoy my thread about the '65. More to come by the way. It's a work in progress and I actually saved it from an engine builder that thought bigger was better and just bolted on a bunch of parts and tried to kill it.
I didn't "chose" a 14-second setup for this car either as someone here proclaimed. If the thing runs 14's as-is I'll be quite happy. If you read up I'm building the car up with what it came with and I'm taking lemons and making lemonade. As one person has already said on my behalf, it's a classic 'stang with quite a few more focuses than the motor. I'm not the one that brought it to the thread. Actually thanks for doing so those of you that did, it shows I just might actually know something about cars. lol
If you wanted to compare apples to apples then I could reference my 331 project on my '90 LX from 6 years ago. It was unlike any 331 you have ever seen and the internals would shock the meager. But personally I haven't felt the need. I'm enjoying watching fools act like fools much better. I usually only talk about my competitive projects to my friends and those that seem interested, and NEVER use it to brag and prove someone wrong. That would just be let's say "cocky"? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
That car in my build thread is by no means going to see the race track on a regular basis if at all. The car is a real POS. I bought it that way and once I get it back in good safe running condition, depending on how well it all goes, I may just donate it to my lady-friend or just drive it on some short cruises on the weekends. ..or just say the hell with it, tub it, cage it, and put a real motor in it. Who knows what the future may bring. All that matters to me is I"m capable if I want to make it a race car or whatever I wanted to. For now it's uncertain.
For now I have fun tinkering with my toys and telling smug people they are full of shit when they act like punks and interrupt what I'm trying to tell someone that has a question directed at my experience.
By the way, I haven't heard any stories of 331's that 93 has built in comparison to a 347. I've heard a lot of "so-called" comparisons but no engine is the same just due to bolt-on parts. Just because two engines have the same or comparable parts does not meant they are a match in their potentials. Combination is EVERYTHING and a 331 combo will be different than a 347.
What it boils down to is I guess some of us stick with what we are partial to and only put "extra love" into what we think is "cool". To each their own and that's cool for the average joe. Shop owners have a tendency to limit themselves if they don't like something, and seriously what's not to like about a 331? 347's have had their "lists" of problems and although they have come a long way they still have a tainted past. So from time to time you're going to hear bad opinions about the 347. That does not give anyone the right to jump all over them and brag about "the one near you". lol.
I must advise any shop owner to keep an open mind the next time a 331 comes into their shop because if that person knows they don't like 331's they will not be too interested in bringing it to them. The fastest way to kill a specialty business is to focus too much on one thing, put down people or even worse tried and true equipment with a blemish-free past time. I've NEVER until now been told a 331 was a POS by any shop owner especially. Now 347's, that's another story. It's like telling someone a chevy 327 is a POS, or hell even the 283. They lasted forever and won a lot of races in their day and if someone wants to use one today they can still brag about how well it will hold up next to "Joe Shmo's 383 stroker"...LOL.
Most of all what cracks me up about all of this is I have no reputation to uphold nor do I care what anyone thinks. That's my life, that's how I live it and hell I don't have a shop to run.
No disrespect to anyone either and to quote someone else it's all gravy here. I've made plenty of friends due to my "opposition" to said person's boastful info, and quite frankly I'm glad I didn't lie back and let "Mr. Wonderful" tell me how I should like my motors. I'm by no means the only one that thinks he's smug and promotes "bad business" either. Too bad for him, and well, it doesn't really matter to me.
Some people brag and some don't, and the ones that don't brag have more business and in the end more friends.
I've met many a genius successful engine builder and most of them are stand up individuals and know how to be professional and laugh at the thought of new business owners that run around forums trying to win arguments and try to prove their theories instead of working hard at pleasing their customers and learning a thing or two along the way. Some folks just know way too much to crack a book, too. I used to be that way, I know!
93 you have a long way to go and good luck in your future as a business owner. I must warn you however the "buzz" around the forum world is not the best and I hope it doesn't effect your business in the long run. I'm sure you're a heck of an engine tuner and a genius engine builder. Use it to better yourself, not to prove the guy wrong that very well may have used his retirement to have you build his hot-rod. If you piss him off he wont give a crap how much you know and he'll take his money to someone else.
Remember for every 1 person you piss off, there are 10 that would rather not do business with you. Another frame of mind I will always obtain is no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. Think about it.
I have no reason to build engines and line my pockets to prove my theories like some folks do. I do what I do in my own leisure and for fun. I'd rather watch what the jackasses do and learn from their mistakes when their customers come to me to fix it. Especially since i"ll do it for fun and a 6-pack of beer on most occasions. That's mostly how I've learned what I know in this business.
Also just a foot-note from the wise to the cocky, any technician that claims they haven't had a comeback or failure has an asshole lined with gold or they screwed up so bad no one will bring it back to them...LOL There is rarely a middle ground. ...and a personal thanks from gents like me and my employers for the business in the past and the future for said screw-ups.
SO I have an idea if Casey is for it, we can change the name of this thread to "How many broken 331's are out there?" and once few or NONE reply we can change the name to "How many broken 347's are out there?" and really have some fun.
What do you say Casey?
[ January 11, 2009, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: bwkelley76 ]
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Dont sweat the petty things and dont pet the sweaty things. "RIP George Carlin"
Posts: 886 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Dec 2008
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86- 50
TEAM PLATINUM
Member # 4723
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posted
Not to keep the thread going, but i believe 93 pony has a 331 in his turbo car. You might still want to take my advice.
[ January 11, 2009, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: 86- 50 ]
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My baby:88gt 347 stroker
RIP MATT, Gone but never forgotten
TEAM PLATINUM
Posts: 1796 | From: richmond | Registered: Jul 2004
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 86- 50:
Not to keep the thread going, but i believe 93 pony has a 331 in his turbo car. You might still want to take my advice.
It's a 333ci (.040" overbore) actually. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
& it only runs 14mph faster in the 1/4 than my wife's 10 second pump gas N/A 347...
And it doesn't have an E cam either... LOL
BTW, we run 331 pistons in the wife's 347. 3.4" stroker 'kits' HAVE come a long way......but rod to stroke ratio is not the reason.
![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
[ January 11, 2009, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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For bwkelly76:
I pulled this out of an old CHP catalog.
Read carefully. 12 years ago the 'problems' with 347 kits were solved. Keep up with the times....
So..... when you post up that 347's are a 'POS' motor & 331's are 'better' due to misc reasons based on pre 1996 347 stroker kits, don't be surprised if someone corrects you.
[ January 11, 2009, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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bwkelley76
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Member # 8792
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posted
No one said the 347 was a POS, nice assumption but please don't put words in my mouth. It has a tainted past unlike a 331 and it's not my choice of rotating assemblies. That is all that was said.
The 347 was actually a great idea for an engine designed to stay under 5500 rpm that makes good horsepower and torque, however it has serious limitations in terms of longevity. You will not see it being used in any endurance races reliably. I'm sorry to say they took a step backwards shortening the rod instead of perfecting the oil-control problem the right way. It's a cost thing, trust me on that, and we'll see how well they hold up in the near future and I must say I'm a little nervous.
What many folks don't know is Ford professional racers made a similar motor when they were tinkering with the Boss engine back in the '70's. They perfected the oil control problem back then but it also failed as a good alternative for the same cost reasons.
331 pistons (the latest combo) in the 347 fixes the oil control quickly and cost-effectively, however it's not the best move for rod-to-stroke ratio at all, and I know from experience the stock 5.0 block doesn't like the extra side-loading. One good hick-up and that block will split open like a melon. I've seen it.
I'm aware of "the times" when it comes to the 347's and the leaps and bounds they have made over the years. Definitely better than the first gen in some aspects, (mostly customer satisfaction and cost) however still not my choice of rotating assemblies, especially not in a standard block.
I'll just throw something out there for ya. I really have nothing to prove and I'm sure some of the more intelligent folks on this site would appreciate this next combo.
It's a good "alternative" outlook on the idea behind the 347 versus the 331. By the way anyone familiar with the Shelby Super Car? Not Carol Shelby, the other Shelby. It has a low-cube twin-turbo setup and puts out over 1000 horsepower. Its engine is based similarly on a combo I've designed which may or may not be the one I'm about to share. you can investigate that if you wish.
Just a note...
It's nice to have a complete custom engine machine shop and an engineering crew at your disposal m-f 8-5. The facility I used in order come up with and test the following combo as well as a few others holds the only true CNC of it's kind in California so I'm sorry I can't divulge it's location or give too much info.
Some of the engineers there have purchased a few of my ideas so I also have to be sure not to give out too much info and spoil their plans for some new and upcoming Ford engine combos. I hope they make them to production. Also keep in mind this next combo was tested vigorously in "real-world" combos and on the racetrack. Rumor has it one of my engineering buddies has one in his SCCA race-car.
"Back in the day" since I'm such an old fella with "old-school" knowledge as some of you proclaim, I designed a 331 rotating assembly with an early 347 style piston with a custom made pin-button and pin for oil control, in combo with a 5.565 rod. (some of you may know what production motor that rod comes from, and NO this was not the ordinary piston button used on the original 347 kits you can still buy today). It was custom-made in our facility and it actually worked and solved the 347 oil-control problem.
On this combo rev-limits on the bottom-end increased to well over 7500 rpm reliably with a stock 5.0 block and made more power and torque than any 347 I have ever seen. (Don't ask to see dyno sheets, they were sold with the plans and I can't specify any numbers to ya)
The cubes of a 331 in combination with slower piston speeds from the long rod were perfect to use an AFR head (not disclosing which) to flow air at that rpm and beyond, giveing great high rpm horsepower and great low-end torque. ...Little head, lots of rpm potential, etc. Scarry thought?
Depending on your application street/strip or road-course, this combo is a perfect setup that is flexible enough to make awesome power in all 3 worlds naturally aspirated, giving the proper heads, cam, etc for the application.
One can also combine it with different supercharger and turbo combos to make different power bands and the motor design was versatile enough to accept them all. If someone really wanted to go nuts they could use a Boss block and heads and rev it up to over 9000 rpm. ..not necessary accept for Indy...LOL.
The more "common" setups everyone is tinkering with now are good platforms and they perform well in a fairly small window of performance. What the future holds is more versatile bottom-end combos that you can "choose" your horsepower by the parts you bolt onto it. Not the opposite where we are fighting to find the right head and cam choices that our bottom-end likes.
So for me on the street If I needed more cubes than 331 I'd much rather use a 351 based stroker. The 351 block is much stronger and the block-height allows for better options.
I think the fact that 93 is running a 331 rotating assemble should speak for itself. I'm sure he can whip a few more ponies out of it as time goes on also, and I'm sure he learned a little more from that 347 combo he worked with. Every tuning experience should allow a little education.
Have fun all and keep an open mind. Cheers.
[ January 12, 2009, 04:28 AM: Message edited by: bwkelley76 ]
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Dont sweat the petty things and dont pet the sweaty things. "RIP George Carlin"
Posts: 886 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Dec 2008
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bwkelley76:
I've NEVER until now been told a 331 was a POS by any shop owner especially. Now 347's, that's another story.
BTW, you write too much.
Lets go to the track....I'll bring an all-motor POS 347 & you bring an all-motor POS 331.
After we have some fun, you can chat my ear off all you want over a few beers.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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BCINGUU
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Member # 2397
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Wow, what happened to this topic! Looks like it was HIJACKED! Well in that case here's my $0.02...
I :heart my 347 motors, all three of them!
I know, I know, there are differences of opinion on longevity and design, and I know they produce a lot of heat, but you know what they say - love is blind!
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93 Cobra #4563 347ci 12.0@118 505rwhp 524tq
90 GT "Saleen Cobra" style convertible 347ci
67 GT "Eleanor" style coupe 347ci
Posts: 1425 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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bwkelley76
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Member # 8792
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
quote:
Originally posted by bwkelley76:
I've NEVER until now been told a 331 was a POS by any shop owner especially. Now 347's, that's another story.
BTW, you write too much.
Lets go to the track....I'll bring an all-motor POS 347 & you bring an all-motor POS 331.
After we have some fun, you can chat my ear off all you want over a few beers.
Still didn't say the 347 was a POS.
..I much prefer the idea of pin button as a "fix" for the 347 oil control problem, however they didn't hold up as well as expected and some would actually twist the oil control ring and score the cylinder. OUCH! The one we made at the facility worked flawlessly and is still running today and it gets beat on regularly.
So my question would be "if the button fixed the problem then why are the NEWEST 347 designs now using a 331 piston and shorter rod?" ...It didn't work because they didn't engineer them correctly, although it was a great idea. Sorry, it wasn't fixed "years ago" it was ditched for the newest "push the envelope with a 347" idea. Definitely a step backward for the 347.
93 trust me if I had the cash and time to waste and step up to your challenge I would love to. You have to wait in line. My ideas bring up plenty of controversy and I have a list of fellas like you that think they can beat everything I design. It's just the business and I haven't lost a challenge yet. One by one they have been proven wrong if not by me, by my colleagues. Maybe some day I can work something out with my engineer buddies and we can take one of my custom 331 designed short-blocks and throw it in a drag-car and play. I'll also see if I can't get access to some of the dyno sheets for ya but no guarantees. ..Assuming you're even interested. But like I said no guarantees. I would be taking a step backward in my engineering and racing experiences just to prove someone wrong over a pushrod motor putting out 5-600 horsepower. My interests lie more in the 1000+ hp range these days. 10-second 1/4 mile times really don't tun me on that much anymore.
Pushrod motors are not where it's at. ..Yet I get acused of not staying up with the times. I love it.
That 331 was an 8 year old project and I've since moved forward in my engineering tasks. Not to take all of the credit, and due credit given to the others that helped with the project, I was way ahead of my time in that 331 design and decided to pass it on to the engineers at the facility since they liked it so much. I was already moving on to modular motors at that point. ..Hence the 2 projects I took on that followed, 2001 and 2004 Lightnings I personally owned. (Thats another thread)
So have fun with your pushrod motors and you can preach all you want about what power they make and how you tuned them, etc. But I promise you everything has been done already and your numbers have been surpassed, and The 331 I built 8 years ago made your buddy's 347 look like a mouse.
I don't mean to ruffle feathers or compete with anyone's challenges in making the best power out of a combo. I commend you all and I'm glad you're having fun. Meanwhile I have my reasons for disliking certain combos and wont sit around and be ridiculed for my opinion.
You don't like to read apparently and I have plenty more I can write to make you look like a fool. It's up to you if you wish to continue but personally this is getting redundant and you're not going to give up until you make your point. Shall I just go against my knowledge and agree with you so you shut up?
That's a compromise I can make.
..oh and I'm always up for a beer or two, or hell 3. ...BTW this is all in fun and I hope no one has gotten their feelers hurt. Some of my best arguments have led to the best of friendships. ..And some folks just hold a grudge. Que Serah Serah.
....In reply the "I heart my motor" statement. I also had a motor I loved back in the day and everyone swore against it. It was a Chevy short-rod 383 stroker, one of the earlier ones that usually went "kaboom". Mine never blew up until after I sold it to an idiot that ran diesel fuel through it. LOL. (another story)
To each their own. After knowing what I know now I would never own another one of those and will still not run a 347. I like having peace of mind that my engine will last and it's design is not in question.
[ January 12, 2009, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: bwkelley76 ]
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Dont sweat the petty things and dont pet the sweaty things. "RIP George Carlin"
Posts: 886 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Dec 2008
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Seriously?
All I see are words.....put up or shut up.
Prove it at the track like the rest of us. The internet is just that....nothing but words.
Our cars are at the local track on any given weekend getting driven to/from the track & beaten on regularly. Anyone can find these cars on the CaFords fastest list...(if they look)
I (like a lot of others) don't take 'words' at face value. I'll believe it when I see it with my own eyes. We've got multiple high powered pump-gas 347's that have run VERY strong for years...& all through that time we've not seen one 331 come close.
We HAVE seen a very nice small headed carburated 347 run door to door with us however! That was from another shop that works in conjunction with CDT (Custom Dyno Tuning) & I must give credit where credit is due. They built & tuned a very nice performing N/A 347!
There are literally thousands of STRONG running 347's that have lasted years and thousands upon thousands of miles.
I HIGHLY doubt an ARC student has more technical knowledge and experience than say....Mark O'Neil (one of the owners of CHP/Probe).
Oh...& I'll take you up on that Beer any time.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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bwkelley76
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Member # 8792
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Oh no I'm being challenged. Boring man, really boring. Sounds like a clip from the movie American Graffiti, or better yet Fast and the Furious. I can't remember exactly what happened though, I think I fell asleep during that part.
This has turned into a battle of who's more compulsive even more-so than a battle of whits and it's become quite LAME. You win the compulsive award.
I shall move on.
Look my friend, (Sean I believe it is) I don't use engines that others have tuned and built to prove my point first off, nor do I claim they have been running at their present horsepower peak for their entire life when they only have been running those numbers for a short time. Third and foremost I don't run around forums trying to defend my title. You're right, leave it to the track, you obviously have better luck out there.
I know what you're up to and I see right through ya. You're not going to get my goat and convince me to a dual over a stupid engine combo that is obsolete these days anyhow. I've moved on with the times and I have no interests in polishing terds with you. I already made my point, I've already made more power out of a 331 than your buddy's 347, and you still push. Go cry yourself a river, I'm really not interested in playing your game any longer. If you're smart you'll take the info I gave you on one of my 331 combos and run with it. It's a much better terd to polish than any 347.
Have fun with the business. I'll keep you in mind at my next discussion at the facility and I'll see if we can't donate a real engine to you as I'm sure you will test it to it's "full potential" since you are such a top-notch tuner. The engine will come with a placard stating "To the World's Most Cocky and Compulsive Tuner". ..although I do have a friend back home that may still take the cake on that one. I should introduce you two, you could talk for hours about how your ass-holes don't stink.
Meanwhile keep your personal attacks to yourself and quit trying to size me up because my opinion wavers from yours. You have no idea what I know and you'll never get enough info out of me to be able to know.
My time at ARC is to obtain on paper what I've already been working with and earned over the last 16 years, as well as a few certifications I need to renew in the automotive field. Education is a constant thing and occasionally I have to go "back" to a community college to renew things if I'm not going back to teach there.
Don't be too quick to judge someone who is furthering their education, or in my case renewing my education, and especially don't attack the facility they choose. Apparently you've never accomplished formal schooling or you'd know community college isn't just for dummies. Its ok man I know plenty of drop-outs and under achievers and I don't judge. You're all my pals. But they sure do like to judge each-other and I laugh when they call the kettle black.
My time at ARC is my fun-time. In combination with my certification classes, I take a project class for fun while obtaining my Masters in Engineering at another college. But that's OK I don't mind being considered an "ARC student" or "ARC Teacher".
Just a word of advice that I learned years ago. Don't ever put down a designer or engineer for their struggles and achievement unless you've earned the degree yourself. Yes I'm aware there are many out there that have never turned a wrench and don't know what it's like to slave in a shop. Those fellas have short careers.
Unlike some I've done it the right way and paid my dues first, being a certified technician for 16 years first while doing engineering on the side. I'm apparently good enough at it that I have the opportunity to chose the high-road. So please don't ridicule. It's better pay, better conditions, a lot more fun, and I can still tinker and tune for fun any day of the week, and I'm recognized for my past experiences.
I'll see you in the next 10 years, or actually you'll see me and you'll remember, when I'm making over 6 figures stamping my name on your customers' parts, and you're still a struggling shop owner tuning push-rod motors and challenging everyone to a race and a beer that doesn't agree with you. I hope you last long enough.
Hang in there and good luck. It's good times. I've been in your shoes, I've owned my own Dyno shop. It's fun at times but hard as hell others. I wouldn't trade a minute of my experiences. Although I loved my business I got smart and sold out once there were 5 other dyno shops in a 10 mile radius. Every racer from here to there thought it was their turn to try and tune. I made a killing when times were good but I had better money coming in elsewhere anyway so I moved on and sold everything for more than I paid. Life's about change and I made more friends than anything, and I NEVER put anyone down or challenged their knowledge along the way. Instead I kept my mouth shut and learned. <----- you should try it sometime.
You never know when you may have to move to a new place where no one knows you or even cares what you know.
Toodles my new friend, I'm sure I'll see you around.
[ January 13, 2009, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: bwkelley76 ]
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Dont sweat the petty things and dont pet the sweaty things. "RIP George Carlin"
Posts: 886 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Dec 2008
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