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Author
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Topic: When 500rwhp is just not enough........
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
 
 
I'm about 3,500 miles into a new engine swap. My car is a 99GT. Installed is a pro built 2003 4.6 2V motor bored .60 over (stage II blower cam - 8.6 to 1 compression) with all the high strength components and topped off with 12 psi of boost. Best dyno numbers so far 510rwhp - 475rwtq. Motor is impressive and super strong.... I should be happy right?
Well I am, very happy...But I'm thinking about raising the bar even further and approaching the pro built 4v cobra motor install. My question to you all is - Do you know anyone who has completed the swap over of a cobra motor into a GT? Is there any particular problem issues I will run into? Wiring adaptation? BTW I don't need anyone to say "Go buy a Cobra" because for now the GT is to stay. Thanks for any insight ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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66 AC COBRA
Nitrous King
Member # 904
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posted
well i know its not what u want to hear but selling ur car and buying a cobra will be much cheaper, but working in your limitations
the swap is actually very difficult
all new wiring, etc. i dont know the whole thing but i have heard it is very very involved
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FFR AC Cobra
72 Vega - WCHRA Extreme 10.5
Posts: 6280 | From: Winters | Registered: Feb 2002
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mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052
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posted
We did a GT to cobra swap at Apex. Pulled the 2V out and put in the 4V along with a new wiring harness from a 4V car. By the time we were done the car could have easily been sold and replaced with a 4V. This customer wanted to keep his car though much like you do. In the end he ended up with a bill one would expect.
Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004
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cobraracer46
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Member # 1142
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An 04 Cobra engine assembly lists for over 11 grand and you still need to shell out money for other parts like the intercooler radiator, PCM an so on. An 03 Cobra already has the motor you want, plus it has the suspension and drive line upgrades from the factory to handle the power output of the motor. You don't want to hear it, but you would be way better off just getting an 03 Cobra or just working with the 2 valve motor you have now. On the other hand, Going with a non blown Cobra motor would be way cheaper. Check out some info on swapping a Cobra into your GT here
[ April 18, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: cobraracer46 ]
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2001 SVT cobra convertible with a Viper T56, Fikse wheels, Griggs frame kit, roll bar, Vortech, 4:30 gears, brembo GT brakes and more.
Posts: 1172 | From: Woodside California | Registered: Apr 2002
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1BAD2V
Screwed and Sprayed
Member # 2495
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posted
if ur selling the gt engine, let me know.
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01 MG GT
Some mods
Posts: 552 | From: Los Angeles,CA | Registered: Feb 2003
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166 Merlo
FELONY
MOTORSPORTS
Member # 1549
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posted
more boost
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'89 - Boss Coupe
'70 - Drop Cutthang
'68 - Cougnut
'87 - 0166, Its real
Posts: 3953 | From: Thebay | Registered: Jul 2002
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
Thanks for the comments guys. I see a theme developing here. Buying the Cobra is probably the best route. Its hard to take in though because the rest of my existing GT car is about as involved as my engine. Everything has been changed. Thanks for the great informational link about the cobra swap. I will have to proceed cautiously considering this project.
If I do take the plunge ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) all who are interested >>> a great 2V motor may be on the market soon. Cole at HCI Motorsports built mine as a special project involving a larger than normal bore and oversized pistons to pursue more displacement. Apex Motorsports has performed all the work on my car. Its good to here they have performed the swap I am considering.
Another question regarding the transfer - Whether I adapt the existing GT brain and harness or not, how does this affect the smog ability of my car. If I do convert to a cobra module - can a registered GT car legally pass smog with a cobra engine?
By the way, buying the cobra for the engine is not going to be super helpful for the bottom line of the potential project because I would want the engine built completely from the ground up with all new internals anyway. Much thanks. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX'
Uncle Frank
Member # 895
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by boilermaker:
By the way, buying the cobra for the engine is not going to be super helpful for the bottom line of the potential project because I would want the engine built completely from the ground up with all new internals anyway. Much thanks.
03 cobra motors are able to go sub 10sec withough even taking off the valve covers. They are more then 'helpful'
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AKA Franky Freaking 5 liter
Advanced Engine Development
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
Engine building
916*275*8212
88 4runner on 42's
Posts: 4206 | From: Folsom | Registered: Feb 2002
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
I was researching the FR500 intake and FR500 heads for the Cobra motor build-up. I ran across a website selling the FR500 heads which said the heads are a great for the earlier model cobra engines but not recommended for the 2003 cobra. Does anyone know why?
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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xchpstang
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Member # 1206
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by boilermaker:
I was researching the FR500 intake and FR500 heads for the Cobra motor build-up. I ran across a website selling the FR500 heads which said the heads are a great for the earlier model cobra engines but not recommended for the 2003 cobra. Does anyone know why?
Just taking a wild guess but I would figure smaller combustion chambers thus making compression ratio very high (over 9.5 to 1) which wouldn't be too boost friendly.
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04 Cobra, K&N FIPK,
Posts: 239 | From: Turlock | Registered: Apr 2002
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mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052
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posted
My guess is that they bump the compression up too much for a supercharged car but thats a guess
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R.I.P. Charlie Bruno Dec 2001
Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
You think that a 03 cobra motor with stock internals will handle that kind of power reliably? I'm not saying that it can't, but I just don't know. I was just in the frame of mind of making sure its done right the first time, before I spread the engine all over the road. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) I know the 03 cobra motor is the best representation thus far of how Ford's modular power plant should be built but I am cautious about the longevity of the stock internals handling the high boost applications many of us are looking to put to them over and over......
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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xchpstang
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Member # 1206
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by boilermaker:
You think that a 03 cobra motor with stock internals will handle that kind of power reliably? I'm not saying that it can't, but I just don't know. I was just in the frame of mind of making sure its done right the first time, before I spread the engine all over the road. I know the 03 cobra motor is the best representation thus far of how Ford's modular power plant should be built but I am cautious about the longevity of the stock internals handling the high boost applications many of us are looking to put to them over and over......
They've proven themselves well into the 9's but it's anyone's guess as to how longevity would be affected at that power level. As with any boosted application the key will be a good tune and good gas.
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04 Cobra, K&N FIPK,
Posts: 239 | From: Turlock | Registered: Apr 2002
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
This feedback is good.. I want to make sure I'm not getting ahead of myself when looking at spending the kind of money required to build one of these motors from the ground up. After all I'm not looking to spend anymore than necessary to do the job adequately.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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1BAD2V
Screwed and Sprayed
Member # 2495
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posted
as I said I might be interested with ur engine combo since I'm looking to purchase a SC + forged my bottom end, can you give us more info on what went inside the block ? are the heads P&P?..will u pass smog with blower cams ? not sure..
thanks
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01 MG GT
Some mods
Posts: 552 | From: Los Angeles,CA | Registered: Feb 2003
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
I have been told it should pass smog fine. I am not due for a smog inspection until next year and have not actually ran a test on the car yet.
I was thinking about going to a test only station to see.
As far as the engine goes it is a HCI 2003 GT 2V blower spec shortblock upgraded to a 3.612 bore (.060 over), forged Cobra steel crankshaft, CP Pistons, total-seal rings, cobra oil pump and pickup tube, Manley rods, Clevite rod bearings, upgraded main studs and SPS head studs, blueprinted to best suit supercharger use and balanced to within 1/2gram
Level II PI Cylinder heads -3 angle valve job- Full porting of intake and exhaust ports - polished and port matched to intake manifold. Valve springs and pressure matched to cams. Level II cams degreed to each other and to crank.
Ported and matched Bullitt Intake, Cobra Twin 62mm throttle body. 8qt. Moroso oil pan. I have BBK longtube headers, High flow H-pipe and cats.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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1BAD2V
Screwed and Sprayed
Member # 2495
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posted
looks good...what SC are you running ? pm me price you wanna sell.
Thanks
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01 MG GT
Some mods
Posts: 552 | From: Los Angeles,CA | Registered: Feb 2003
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NiftyWhiteFifty
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Member # 4320
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posted
I say, if you have a fully built block already that's meant to handle high boost, just put more boost on it! 17-20lbs would be sufficient for some high horsepower numbers
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'05 F150 4x4
Posts: 2056 | From: San Jose | Registered: Mar 2004
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PeNiNsula302
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Member # 1061
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by NiftyWhiteFifty:
I say, if you have a fully built block already that's meant to handle high boost, just put more boost on it! 17-20lbs would be sufficient for some high horsepower numbers
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Mar 2002
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
I am running a Vortech V2 SQ with a 3.12 pulley and aftercooler.
I'll keep you posted if I decide to sell RD2.
I just got the bid faxed to me for the built up cobra motor. Shocking.
I wonder what type of boost a 2.95" pulley will deliver?
17-20lbs of boost? I hope u have a good tune guy and a 100 octane pump in your garage! I think 14-15lbs. with an 8-10 rib set-up would reach the comfort level.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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1BAD2V
Screwed and Sprayed
Member # 2495
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posted
what about getting a bored/stroked short block ? a 324 ?
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01 MG GT
Some mods
Posts: 552 | From: Los Angeles,CA | Registered: Feb 2003
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mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052
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posted
Heres the thing. I've seen a fully prepped 2V built motor, aftercooler with tons of boost also. While this car made more peak power and torque than the mildly modified '03 cobra when you put the two side by side the '03 waxed it because the boost comes on the second the pedal hits the floor where as the 2V isn't making high boost #'s till the top end. Also to consider this is the max the 2V can deliver where the cobra had numerous mods that could make the car even quicker.
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R.I.P. Charlie Bruno Dec 2001
Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004
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1BAD2V
Screwed and Sprayed
Member # 2495
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posted
what about getting a KB blower ?...u get big HP/TQ at low rpms...
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01 MG GT
Some mods
Posts: 552 | From: Los Angeles,CA | Registered: Feb 2003
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boilermaker
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Member # 4085
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posted
There is no doubt that the cobra motor's top end ability is superior to the 2V's. I saw the dyno chart for an otherwise stock 03 cobra with the new KB Blowzilla blower on it (there is also numerous articles on the cobra KB upgrade in recent mags) 19lbs. of boost, exhaust plus maybe headers - delivering 661rwhp. Theres 2v motors out there runnin in the 8's but these are pro mod dragsters and street driveability, well let me guess, is not quite there. I think its fair to assume that a streetable 2v motor is not going to reliably produce over 550rwhp.(if you disagree please let me know how!) The cobra motor on the other hand will easily surpass that and be a daily driver without a problem.
Its a great factory motor indeed but 19lbs. of boost will take its toll quickly on that stock motor. I am waiting to see. I don't hear of many mustangs otherwise running over 12-13 psi of boost? The guys I talk to say its a point of diminishing returns and can actually hurt to go higher due to having to De-tune your car, knock back timing to prevent the bad stuff.
For all who love that new cobra motor so much - Imagine the performance achieved from one built up with all the pro internals. However, If the factory motor can handle it - it would be a sure waste of money building one - after all 661rwhp would probably satisfy most drivers. Decisions.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Feb 2004
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mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052
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posted
I know of a couple of '03's that have come out of Apex making 650 flywheel horsepower with no problems and excellent driveability. Stock bottom end to boot. Don't know if the stock bottom end will make it to 100K that is yet to be seen. As far as the KB blower on a 2V goes the gains are impressive. Similar bottom end grunt and instant boost that one see's in an '03 cobra motor but the 2V must be built to tackle anything over 15 pounds IMO.
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R.I.P. Charlie Bruno Dec 2001
Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004
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