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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

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Originally posted by SydeWaySix:

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

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Aaren't you supposed to remove both upper control arms? Or am I mistaking that for a torque arm setup?

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
You can remove one upper control arm when you install a PHB but no torque arm. A good number of CMC mustang racers do this to fit within the rules. You will need to keep an eye on the bushings because they wear out fast.

The problem with installing a pan hard bar and keeping both upper control arms is that you have two pieces of equipment trying locate the axle laterally. When the car rolls on its axis in a turn the upper control arms need to let the axle move laterally in order to alleviate binding. But with the pan hard bar on there the axle no longer moves laterally, it's locked in place. This causes the rear suspension to bind which causes the car to lose traction unexpectedly. This is called snap oversteer, I've had it in my first track car and it is pretty scary and really slows you down in a competitive setting.

During street driving or even spirited twisties you most likely won't notice this. But if you get on a track or autocross and drive the car hard enough it will definitely be noticed. I think this is a good mod for the poster to try with his students. Again, type "PM3L" in google, there is lots of information on it.

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Originally posted by Saleen 00-0768:

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

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the poor mans 3 link is an attempt to change the suspension design, which has been tested many years ago by maximum motorsports along with the stock 4 link set up and also their prototype torque arm at the time they were able to switch suspension set ups within just a couple hours and run tests on the same car and same conditions and they will tell you the benefit of adding a panhard bar to a completely stock 4 link suspension far out weighs not running one at all and that there ARE NO ILL EFFECTS, and that running the PM3L is not recommended and causes the remaining upper bushing to break down in a very short period of time along with the way it make the car feel strange especially accelerating in a streaght line due to the angle the upper control arm is mounted.

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:

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Originally posted by Saleen 00-0768:

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

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the poor mans 3 link is an attempt to change the suspension design, which has been tested many years ago by maximum motorsports along with the stock 4 link set up and also their prototype torque arm at the time they were able to switch suspension set ups within just a couple hours and run tests on the same car and same conditions and they will tell you the benefit of adding a panhard bar to a completely stock 4 link suspension far out weighs not running one at all and that there ARE NO ILL EFFECTS, and that running the PM3L is not recommended and causes the remaining upper bushing to break down in a very short period of time along with the way it make the car feel strange especially accelerating in a streaght line due to the angle the upper control arm is mounted.

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Have you driven a car on the track with a panhard bar and the 4 link setup?

I have and I promise you if you drive the car hard enough the car will snap oversteer. If it doesn't, you're not driving the car hard enough. I would take a strange feeling under acceleration any day over snap oversteer.

Remember, MM is a company trying to sell parts. Why would they recommend the PM3L when they can sell you a torque arm? They also know that 99% of their customers will never drive the car hard enough to induce snap oversteer so it's not an issue. But if you want to be competitive at auto x or wheel to wheel racing in a class with tight rules it is something to try.

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so the fact that MM states a phb with both stock uppers is better than a PM3L is a lie to sell more torque arms?

[ 2013-12-18, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]

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'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

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Originally posted by SF Coupe:
Answer the question my son.

Have you driven a mustang on the track as fast as you possibly could with a panhard bar and the stock upper control arms?

If you haven't, you have no business commenting on the setup. You are merely regurgitating what somebody else wrote on the internet.

To the original poster, go out and test things and make your own conclusion, that is the fun of competing with cars.

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first of all I don't need to go around a road course as fast as possible to understand how a suspension feels and what its going to do but im assuming you've done this with the PM3L then??

my mustang has an MM panhard bar and torque arm in it already and ive been in both and know how both feel so don't tell me what I do and don't have business commenting on. you first track car probably wasn't set up correctly and your experience there carries little weight.

the fact that MM states a phb with both stock uppers is better than a PM3L is a lie to sell more torque arms?

[ 2013-12-18, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]

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'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

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Originally posted by 331SVO:
SF coupe would know he is a multiple podium winner and has won in ai/ aix .... I am having a big issue with snap oversteer at the autocross . I have a s197 with brembo package eibach double adjustable coil overs and mm pan hard. I've autocross in Oakland coliseum and man it seems like the rear end just wants to swing out I have to really be smooth with the throttle and brakes or else it will make a turn into a 180

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