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» Northern California Ford Owners     » Automotive   » Road Racing, Auto X & Drifting   » Autocrossing the "Doh-nut", Need inexpensive susp. suggestions!

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Author Topic: Autocrossing the "Doh-nut", Need inexpensive susp. suggestions!
ashyers
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We've acquired yet another beater Fox at the high school auto shop and it looks like we may do some autocrossing with it in '14.

The car is a stockish '89 5.0 notch with an AOD. I'll describe where we are now:
*Rebuilt the traction-lok & installed 3:73 gears
*Replaced rear control arm bushings w/ stock style rubber
*Installing a Baumann shift kit
*Replaced front ball joints & control arm bushings (urethane)
*Replaced tie rods
*Rebuilt brakes w/ MM kit for stock rotors/drums (good pads/shoes & braided hoses)
*We'll also sort out the myriad of issues the car has due to past abuse.

The car has crappy shocks and Eibach Pro-Kit springs. We'll probably be running pony's with 225/50-16 DOT tires unless I come up with 1 matching 17x9 rim to replace the broken one that was on the car!

I'm looking for suggestions related to the suspension with the most bang for the buck that won't put us in a class where we'll be hopelessly uncompetitive. The car needs to be reasonably easy to drive and forgiving as the students will have the opportunity to drive it.

We love good used parts and have more time than $$$$ [Smile] !

Thanks in advance for the suggestions.

Andy

Posts: 74 | From: oakland/san leandro | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
Saleen 00-768
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Put a panhard bar in it. It's a huge improvement on the feel for corner grip and gives better feedback to the driver on what the car is going to do.

Weld in a set of subframe connectors to keep the chassis straight, it gives the car a much stiffer feeling platform .

If you are looking to further improve the car and want the car to be very safe and extremely predictable feeling and handle night and day over stock, put in a torque arm and remove upper control arms

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'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
SLOWSN95
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Good shocks and panhard bar should come first. Those 2 things will be the key to handling. Honestly, people end up jumping the gun and buying things they don't need quite yet. If a car were to get everything done over time and had to buy one part at a time, the list would go like this, and this advice is what I learned from Mike Maier.

1) springs
2) shocks
3) camber caster plates (if lowered too far out of alignment specs)
3) panhard bar
4) lower control arms (stock uppers because the 4 link needs flex)
5) torque arm
6) subframe connectors

Bumpsteer kit is not needed unless you change to an sn95 spindle.

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94' GT
347 Stroker
MM Suspended

2003 SB SVT Lightning
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89'Hatch-SOLD

Posts: 2214 | From: 510/east bay | Registered: Mar 2008  |  :
RickRock98
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All of these things are great advise. The only thing I can add is that you can make some of those things. I made my own caster camber plates using the original plates. You can also make your owe subframe connectors. And maybe even make your owe strut bar. In my opinion they don't have to be state-of-the-art to be competitive and specially to have fun. Oh and one more thing..... again this is only my opinion. The number one upgrade you can do in handeling is tires. If your going to spend some money somewhere spend it there. Good luck and have fun.
Posts: 13 | From: Central Valley | Registered: Oct 2013  |  :
SF Coupe
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If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.
Posts: 1082 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2002  |  :
SydeWaySix
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quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

Aaren't you supposed to remove both upper control arms? Or am I mistaking that for a torque arm setup?

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2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.

Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002  |  :
5.0 LsX
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quote:
Originally posted by SydeWaySix:
quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

Aaren't you supposed to remove both upper control arms? Or am I mistaking that for a torque arm setup?
a trq arm does not utilize upper control arms...and you def do not want to remove an upper control arm if your running a 4 link setup

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91' Notch

Posts: 1260 | Registered: May 2010  |  :
SydeWaySix
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Right, but when running a TA you need to run a PHB as well. In that situation you'd need to eliminate both upper control arms.

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2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.

Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002  |  :
SF Coupe
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You can remove one upper control arm when you install a PHB but no torque arm. A good number of CMC mustang racers do this to fit within the rules. You will need to keep an eye on the bushings because they wear out fast.

The problem with installing a pan hard bar and keeping both upper control arms is that you have two pieces of equipment trying locate the axle laterally. When the car rolls on its axis in a turn the upper control arms need to let the axle move laterally in order to alleviate binding. But with the pan hard bar on there the axle no longer moves laterally, it's locked in place. This causes the rear suspension to bind which causes the car to lose traction unexpectedly. This is called snap oversteer, I've had it in my first track car and it is pretty scary and really slows you down in a competitive setting.

During street driving or even spirited twisties you most likely won't notice this. But if you get on a track or autocross and drive the car hard enough it will definitely be noticed. I think this is a good mod for the poster to try with his students. Again, type "PM3L" in google, there is lots of information on it.

Posts: 1082 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2002  |  :
Saleen 00-768
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quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

the poor mans 3 link is an attempt to change the suspension design, which has been tested many years ago by maximum motorsports along with the stock 4 link set up and also their prototype torque arm at the time they were able to switch suspension set ups within just a couple hours and run tests on the same car and same conditions and they will tell you the benefit of adding a panhard bar to a completely stock 4 link suspension far out weighs not running one at all and that there ARE NO ILL EFFECTS, and that running the PM3L is not recommended and causes the remaining upper bushing to break down in a very short period of time along with the way it make the car feel strange especially accelerating in a streaght line due to the angle the upper control arm is mounted.

[ 2013-12-18, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]

--------------------
'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
Saleen 00-768
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quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
You can remove one upper control arm when you install a PHB but no torque arm. A good number of CMC mustang racers do this to fit within the rules. You will need to keep an eye on the bushings because they wear out fast.

The problem with installing a pan hard bar and keeping both upper control arms is that you have two pieces of equipment trying locate the axle laterally. When the car rolls on its axis in a turn the upper control arms need to let the axle move laterally in order to alleviate binding. But with the pan hard bar on there the axle no longer moves laterally, it's locked in place. This causes the rear suspension to bind which causes the car to lose traction unexpectedly. This is called snap oversteer, I've had it in my first track car and it is pretty scary and really slows you down in a competitive setting.

During street driving or even spirited twisties you most likely won't notice this. But if you get on a track or autocross and drive the car hard enough it will definitely be noticed. I think this is a good mod for the poster to try with his students. Again, type "PM3L" in google, there is lots of information on it.

the axle is NOT locked in place at ANY time with a stock UCA's and a phb sorry.
the PHB is taking nearly 100% of cornering forces instead of the upper control arms as they would without it. the rubber inside them allows them to move in the arc of the panhard bar's axis

[ 2013-12-18, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]

--------------------
'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
SF Coupe
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quote:
Originally posted by Saleen 00-0768:
quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

the poor mans 3 link is an attempt to change the suspension design, which has been tested many years ago by maximum motorsports along with the stock 4 link set up and also their prototype torque arm at the time they were able to switch suspension set ups within just a couple hours and run tests on the same car and same conditions and they will tell you the benefit of adding a panhard bar to a completely stock 4 link suspension far out weighs not running one at all and that there ARE NO ILL EFFECTS, and that running the PM3L is not recommended and causes the remaining upper bushing to break down in a very short period of time along with the way it make the car feel strange especially accelerating in a streaght line due to the angle the upper control arm is mounted.
Have you driven a car on the track with a panhard bar and the 4 link setup?

I have and I promise you if you drive the car hard enough the car will snap oversteer. If it doesn't, you're not driving the car hard enough. I would take a strange feeling under acceleration any day over snap oversteer.

Remember, MM is a company trying to sell parts. Why would they recommend the PM3L when they can sell you a torque arm? They also know that 99% of their customers will never drive the car hard enough to induce snap oversteer so it's not an issue. But if you want to be competitive at auto x or wheel to wheel racing in a class with tight rules it is something to try.

Posts: 1082 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2002  |  :
Saleen 00-768
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quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
quote:
Originally posted by Saleen 00-0768:
quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
If you put a panhard bar in it remove one of the upper control arms. It's called a poor mans three link or pm3l. Search google pm3l. Panhard bar plus upper control arms is a recipe for snap over steer, been there done that, not fun.

the poor mans 3 link is an attempt to change the suspension design, which has been tested many years ago by maximum motorsports along with the stock 4 link set up and also their prototype torque arm at the time they were able to switch suspension set ups within just a couple hours and run tests on the same car and same conditions and they will tell you the benefit of adding a panhard bar to a completely stock 4 link suspension far out weighs not running one at all and that there ARE NO ILL EFFECTS, and that running the PM3L is not recommended and causes the remaining upper bushing to break down in a very short period of time along with the way it make the car feel strange especially accelerating in a streaght line due to the angle the upper control arm is mounted.
Have you driven a car on the track with a panhard bar and the 4 link setup?

I have and I promise you if you drive the car hard enough the car will snap oversteer. If it doesn't, you're not driving the car hard enough. I would take a strange feeling under acceleration any day over snap oversteer.

Remember, MM is a company trying to sell parts. Why would they recommend the PM3L when they can sell you a torque arm? They also know that 99% of their customers will never drive the car hard enough to induce snap oversteer so it's not an issue. But if you want to be competitive at auto x or wheel to wheel racing in a class with tight rules it is something to try.

so the fact that MM states a phb with both stock uppers is better than a PM3L is a lie to sell more torque arms? [Roll Eyes]

[ 2013-12-18, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]

--------------------
'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
SF Coupe
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Answer the question my son.

Have you driven a mustang on the track as fast as you possibly could with a panhard bar and the stock upper control arms?

If you haven't, you have no business commenting on the setup. You are merely regurgitating what somebody else wrote on the internet.

To the original poster, go out and test things and make your own conclusion, that is the fun of competing with cars.

Posts: 1082 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2002  |  :
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quote:
Originally posted by SF Coupe:
Answer the question my son.

Have you driven a mustang on the track as fast as you possibly could with a panhard bar and the stock upper control arms?

If you haven't, you have no business commenting on the setup. You are merely regurgitating what somebody else wrote on the internet.

To the original poster, go out and test things and make your own conclusion, that is the fun of competing with cars.

first of all I don't need to go around a road course as fast as possible to understand how a suspension feels and what its going to do but im assuming you've done this with the PM3L then??

my mustang has an MM panhard bar and torque arm in it already and ive been in both and know how both feel so don't tell me what I do and don't have business commenting on. you first track car probably wasn't set up correctly and your experience there carries little weight.

the fact that MM states a phb with both stock uppers is better than a PM3L is a lie to sell more torque arms? [Roll Eyes]

[ 2013-12-18, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Saleen 00-0768 ]

--------------------
'00 Saleen SC #768
'90 GT
'90 California Edition (sold)
'87 Saleen #264 (sold)

Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
5.0 LsX
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SF Coupe, I see what you are trying to say as far as centering the rear and fighting against the upper arms. that just means the chassis/ suspension is way out of spec, and adjustable upper control arms are needed.
but I wouldn't feel good with racing without an upper control arm..one is needed to hold the pinion angle and the other is for preload..just a terrible idea IMO to save $75

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91' Notch

Posts: 1260 | Registered: May 2010  |  :
SydeWaySix
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With a PHB and TA setup, NO rear upper control arms are needed. The TA will Set the pinion angle.

Also, as a side note and not to knock anyone, but SFCoupe is an ex NASA AIX-Outlaw racer. I'm sure he's experienced 1000x's more handling issues than any of us have. His advice is likely more sound than most...

--------------------
2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.

Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002  |  :
331SVO
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SF coupe would know he is a multiple podium winner and has won in ai/ aix .... I am having a big issue with snap oversteer at the autocross . I have a s197 with brembo package eibach double adjustable coil overs and mm pan hard. I've autocross in Oakland coliseum and man it seems like the rear end just wants to swing out I have to really be smooth with the throttle and brakes or else it will make a turn into a 180
Posts: 226 | From: San Leandro | Registered: Jan 2007  |  :
Saleen 00-768
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quote:
Originally posted by 331SVO:
SF coupe would know he is a multiple podium winner and has won in ai/ aix .... I am having a big issue with snap oversteer at the autocross . I have a s197 with brembo package eibach double adjustable coil overs and mm pan hard. I've autocross in Oakland coliseum and man it seems like the rear end just wants to swing out I have to really be smooth with the throttle and brakes or else it will make a turn into a 180

All 05+ mustangs have phb factory equipped, and a different rear suspension configuration, so to compare your issues with your s197 to running a phb on a stock 4 link from 79-04 is irrelevant.
Posts: 1664 | From: NOR✯CAL | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
4IDFOX
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Hate to break it to you but those springs put you in a class that car will not be competitive in. Actually these cars struggle in any class till it is modified to a race prepared class where you have thrown all the suspension away.

Just make the car safe for the kids and have fun. Tires are the best bang for the buck for autocross.

Snap oversteer is an issue with theses cars.
Stock configuration. Is the worst. A phb helps and the pm3l helps more. A tourque arm or five link is the way to get away from it.

Search for info that comes from this site to get some good info on diy suspension
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/index.php

[ 2013-12-20, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: 4IDFOX ]

Posts: 375 | From: Redding CA | Registered: Apr 2010  |  :
ashyers
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Anyone going tomorrow? I'm headed over with the car and a few students tomorrow for some fun in the rain!
Posts: 74 | From: oakland/san leandro | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
acmikee
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have you looked into the NASA teen car control clinic? it will teach the teens how to drive in different conditions.

how was it running over cones today

Posts: 241 | From: fremont | Registered: Apr 2005  |  :
acmikee
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http://nasacarcontrol.org/
Posts: 241 | From: fremont | Registered: Apr 2005  |  :
ashyers
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Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.

We had a great time at the auto-x this past weekend and will be out again Sunday. The crew from SCCA really treated us well the car survived and the kids did a great job in the conditions. All and all a win [Smile] !

Posts: 74 | From: oakland/san leandro | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :
ashyers
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We're taking the Doh-nut out for another beating tomorrow. Last week the kids and I did 25 runs! Not bad for a tow yard special [Smile] . We'll see how it does in the dry now...
Posts: 74 | From: oakland/san leandro | Registered: Aug 2009  |  :


 
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