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Author
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Topic: Dart 347 Build
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95331StrimVert
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Member # 6250
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posted
 
 
Thoughts,
Stangers, I’m getting a new Dart based 347 internal balanced short-block for my sn95 S-Trim vert. The 4 bolt block will have a forged Eagle internally balanced crank, H-beam rods, JE dished pitons, and E-cam. I have negotiated a price for the build.
93Pony gave me some real good pointers for this build. I would like to go with a better (smog-able???) bump-stick, and I will stick with the Vortech S-trim, 77mm Pro-Flow, 36lb, and SVO intake. Because, at this time I will taped out of cash and note able to replace the Autologic chip and get a retune. By the way, the tune that Byron did a few years ago before I bought the car was top notch:-) Very street-able and smog-able. Any last minute thoughts on the new build before I lay out the long green? ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
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95331StrimVert
Posts: 398 | From: Martinez ca | Registered: Nov 2005
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SmokinLX
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Member # 1684
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Injector's look a little small? What pulley combo are You running on the Vortech? Not trying to sound harsh but why the E cam on a 347? That E cam will be holding You back, so I would try to change it while the engine is out of the car! Should'nt take Ya too lomg to save up 2-300 buck's. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I just got rid of the E cam in My old engine and it was way too small on 308.
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Dont claim power if ya cant mile per hour. 10 second AOD
Posts: 4388 | From: East Bay | Registered: Aug 2002
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
XE274HR, retarded 4 degrees.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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95331StrimVert
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Member # 6250
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posted
It has been argued that the 36s are small. But if the rails and connectors are drilled out and the pressure bumped up just a little bit I should be ok there. That’s what I’ve been told. I’m Not an expert here…
The pulley is a 3.3 I think. And it was running 9lbs of boost on the 331.
The deal with the cam is that I that I didn’t want to re-tune the auto logic chip. I heard that it’s hard to get an Auto-logic tuner around the Bay Area these days. Wouldn’t I need to re-tune if the cam is changed?
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95331StrimVert
Posts: 398 | From: Martinez ca | Registered: Nov 2005
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twisted54
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Member # 1981
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Hey Tony...I think you're gonne end up needing a new tune with the added cubes. You should at least put it on a dyno to check out your A/F and then decide if you want to get a new chip and tune.
Tony
EDIT: Shaun (93 Pony) is good guy and he definately knows his stuff. He helped me with my cam and intake as well as bringing my compression back up on my #1 cylinder.
[ January 15, 2006, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: twisted54 ]
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2013 Black on Black 5.0 with Boost N Things - CORN FED 🌽
Posts: 3422 | From: ebay | Registered: Oct 2002
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92stangLX
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Member # 3252
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 95331StrimVert:
It has been argued that the 36s are small. But if the rails and connectors are drilled out and the pressure bumped up just a little bit I should be ok there. That’s what I’ve been told. I’m Not an expert here…
The pulley is a 3.3 I think. And it was running 9lbs of boost on the 331.
The deal with the cam is that I that I didn’t want to re-tune the auto logic chip. I heard that it’s hard to get an Auto-logic tuner around the Bay Area these days. Wouldn’t I need to re-tune if the cam is changed?
If you change *anything* in your combo you should get a retune. I have heard that Mustang Ranch will re-tune Autologic chips but you should really consider going with an SCT chip and a fresh tune.
Posts: 5302 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Sep 2003
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CDT
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Member # 5004
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posted
you are going to have to pullry down, because you will loose boost with a bigger engine and better airflow. The injectors will top out if you take it to the power levels you will probably want out of it. Also plan on adding a meth kit and/or aftercooler, your going to need it as the IAT's will be through the roof.
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Custom Dyno Tuning
510.331.0608
Home of Flat Fee Tuning For All Cars, Trucks and SUV's, EFI & Carb, SCT, AFR, Dynatech, STS Turbos, N2O Refills
Posts: 1053 | From: Hayward | Registered: Nov 2004
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CornOil_&_Boost
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Member # 5888
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quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
XE274HR, retarded 4 degrees.
I actually have a? on that for you.....
What is the advantage of retarding the cam so much?...Do oyu get more peak Tq out of it?....just wondering because once I get my situation figured out..I'm still going to run by your recommendation and retard the cam....
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https://www.facebook.com/pushrodpoweredmustangs
'95 Cobra - small engine / small turbo -
'02 Excursion 7.3 - tow vehicle
'14 - Chevy Volt - DD
Posts: 5097 | Registered: Jul 2005
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66 AC COBRA
Nitrous King
Member # 904
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posted
your current block can take more power than those 36's could ever hope to make hp wise ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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FFR AC Cobra
72 Vega - WCHRA Extreme 10.5
Posts: 6280 | From: Winters | Registered: Feb 2002
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95331StrimVert
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Member # 6250
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posted
Guys,
Thanks for all of your replies. A lot of advice for sure. Maybe I should just stick with a 331 build and keep everything else the same. Seems like if I step up to the 347, I will need larger injectors, a new cam, a smaller pulley, a new tune, water injection (not sure if I feel safe with that one, as it could loose an injector and I would be screwed)... Damn, what to do do dooooo? I’m not trying to make all the power in the world, as this is a (street car????), and it must pass smog, and smoke a few bikes from time to time;-)
Anyone what to throw out a price on the additional mods, tunes and all?
Thanks,
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95331StrimVert
Posts: 398 | From: Martinez ca | Registered: Nov 2005
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TrickRacer50
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Member # 6345
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posted
The XE274HR cam is a great cam that passes CA smog, but I am not sure how good it would be for a blown car.
Comp makes an XE cam for a blown application. The advantage to all of the XE cams is that they make high vacuum, which is what helps them pass smog.
Posts: 78 | From: NorCal | Registered: Dec 2005
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rico91stang
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Member # 2389
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quote:
Originally posted by 66 AC COBRA:
your current block can take more power than those 36's could ever hope to make hp wise
Ditto unless you are winding it to the moon, which you probably won't be with the e-cam.
A dart block seems a little (read LOT) extreme for your power output, but if you want reliability then.... good choice.
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"My shit ain't stock. Shits got a cam yo."-Archie Saleen (Union city)
Posts: 388 | From: Oakland | Registered: Jan 2003
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rico91stang
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Member # 2389
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quote:
Originally posted by 95331StrimVert:
Guys,
Thanks for all of your replies. A lot of advice for sure. Maybe I should just stick with a 331 build and keep everything else the same. Seems like if I step up to the 347, I will need larger injectors, a new cam, a smaller pulley, a new tune, water injection (not sure if I feel safe with that one, as it could loose an injector and I would be screwed)... Damn, what to do do dooooo? I’m not trying to make all the power in the world, as this is a (street car????), and it must pass smog, and smoke a few bikes from time to time;-)
Anyone what to throw out a price on the additional mods, tunes and all?
Thanks,
Probably won't be beating many 1k's with 36# injectors.
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"My shit ain't stock. Shits got a cam yo."-Archie Saleen (Union city)
Posts: 388 | From: Oakland | Registered: Jan 2003
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
LOL here we go again do not retard your XE274 in blown aplications just run it as ground it will be fine. I run 36's in my 331 and am actualy thinking of bumping them to 42's(I am going to soon) BTW the xe274 works great on blown cars. I drive mine daily rain or shine still get decent milage and have more power than I can hook up on my DOT tires.(I am sure if I strip the A/C and relocate the battery) it would hook up better). but my blown car will still pass the snifer test
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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95331StrimVert
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Member # 6250
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Hey rico91stang ,
Probably won't be beating many “1k's” with 36# injectors, Are you referring to 1000cc plus bikes?
I plan to rev this motor for sure. On the last motor, the XXX Keith Craft 331 with the E303 the power was on the money and would rev quickly up to 5500 where it would just drop off. I didn’t like that as it made me feel like I needed to grab gears prematurely… I’m running 3:55s in a Auburn diff on Bridgestone S-02 295/35/18s. At WOT those tires would go up in smoke at 40mph… The setup was real nice, all except for either over revving it or a few pings that cracked the block.
So the cam change seems to be inline with my desire to rev-er-up. Now, should I stay at 331 or go 347? And the Dart block is insurance against breakage for sure… So does everyone still think the 36s are to small?
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95331StrimVert
Posts: 398 | From: Martinez ca | Registered: Nov 2005
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95331StrimVert
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Member # 6250
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posted
Anyone had issues smoging with the XE274HR cam?
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95331StrimVert
Posts: 398 | From: Martinez ca | Registered: Nov 2005
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twisted54
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Member # 1981
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posted
That's the same cam I have...I've never tried to smog with it but some say it'll pass.
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2013 Black on Black 5.0 with Boost N Things - CORN FED 🌽
Posts: 3422 | From: ebay | Registered: Oct 2002
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TrickRacer50
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Member # 6345
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posted
I have a 331 with TrickFlow heads, 24lb injectors, and a Comp XE274HR cam and passed smog with flying colors.
I have the stock H pipe with 4 cats. It even passed smog with wires 7 and 8 crossed!!!
If someone could tell me how to post a picture I can show my smog results.
The picture is on my desktop
Posts: 78 | From: NorCal | Registered: Dec 2005
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
The XE274HR is:
Intake lobe #3632
Exhaust lobe #3634
Intake lobe specs:
.006/.050/.200/lobe lift
273/224/148/.347
Exhaust lobe specs:
.006/.050/.200/lobe lift
281/232/155/.353
The XE274HR comes ground on a 112LSA & 108ICL.
This means the cam has 53 degrees of overlap @.006, & 4 degrees of overlap @.050. Typically a camshaft will pass smog on a 3" stroke with 1 or less overlap @.050 lift. On a 3.25"-3.4" stroke you can get away with more overlap & still pass smog. The XE274HR has been proven to pass the sniffer when in good tune with good cats.
As you can see the exhaust lobe is larger....both duration & lift. 7-8 degrees across the entire range of lift.
Valve events @.050 when installed as ground (108ICL):
IVO: 4 BTDC
IVC: 40 ABDC
EVO: 52 BBDC
EVC: 0 (TDC)
By the events you can see that the camshaft is actually 12 degrees exhaust bias relative to TDC. (52-40)
This means relative to TDC there is 12 more degrees of exhaust duration than intake duration.
Although the intake on a boosted application is under pressure, it's still under FAR less pressure than when the exhaust valve cracks open.
Overscavanging the cylinder can be a problem. (depending on your exhaust system as a whole).
AFR heads are notoriously high flowing on the exhaust side. Couple the high flow exhaust port with longtubes & off-road exhaust & you have WAY more exhaust system (as a whole) then needed.
Given this, an easy solution is to retard the camshaft 4 degrees (to 'straight up') which reduces the exhaust bias of the cam by 8 degrees. (add for to the intake closing event & subract 4 from the exhaust opening event)
The results would be better low/midrange performance (due to less overscavanging of the cylinder, or 'exhaust reversion') & slightly higher power at RPM (due to the later intake valve closing event).
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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95331StrimVert
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Member # 6250
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posted
Dang Shaun, sounds good to me... Would you still recommend the 4 degree retard with TFS, heads, shorty motorsport headers, Bassani X with cats, and 3" Maganaflows?
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95331StrimVert
Posts: 398 | From: Martinez ca | Registered: Nov 2005
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
as always I disagree with you. And have posted dyno sheets that prove it doesn't always work like that with the XE series cam. I guess some things will never change LOL. I will say again and again retarding this cam in a blown aplication is a waste of your time and could cost you some HP and TQ
[ January 19, 2006, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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need-a-cage
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Member # 5415
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posted
95331STRIM,
I wanted to know what you thought of the Keith Craft motor. They are on the top of my list to order a forged 331 from for my S-trim setup. I am going to wait for the Boss block to come out and then get it or the Dart, which ever is a better bang for the buck on a 500rwhp setup. The Dart is a $1600 upgrade through KC. I am considering using a local builder and am just curious why you aren't using KC again.
I am also wondering which cam to get. I was leaning toward the E or the small TFS but I have to pass CA Smog as well. I will also shift by 6k since I have small Edelbrock heads (6037) and Cobra intake, so I don't want a high rpm cam.
Thanks,
Craig
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93 LX Hatch, Dart Big Bore 347, Edelbrock 6037's, Cobra intake, Tremec, S-trim, 60# injectors, Tweecer RT
10.84 @ 128.5mph
Posts: 606 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Mar 2005
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
as always I disagree with you. And have posted dyno sheets that prove it doesn't always work like that with the XE series cam. I guess some things will never change LOL. I will say again and again retarding this cam in a blown aplication is a waste of your time and could cost you some HP and TQ
You have dyno sheets of the XE274HR retarded 4 degrees vs 'as ground'? Please post them up!
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
Nothing wrong with Keith Craft engines. They are a little spendy on machine work. So far this year I have ordered 2 Dart block engines from them one complete for a friend of mine a 347(XE274 for smog reasons). Then for me a 410, iron eagle 9.5 Block and rotating assy( I will build my own.)anyhow last time I tried to post a dyno sheet it wouldn't work correctly.Not sure why I am lacking on some computer skills LOL.
I am sure you won't agree with this also but on a N/A set up I would try retarding the cam but not on a S/C set up. BTW we have done back to back(weekends not races so there could be other factors weather cond were very close) drag strip runs with a carwith 317 stroker with a S-trim AFR185 heads systemmax intake XE 274 cam. The cam was retarded at first then set straight up(dot to dot, don't need that argument again LOL)there actualy wasn't a difference in perfomance. according to the clocks.
[ January 19, 2006, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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need-a-cage
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Member # 5415
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posted
2-stangs,
Can I have some details on your 331. From your mph you have it putting out some good numbers. I still don't know what cam to get. If I don't port my heads and intake, then it will be a low rpm motor. I also want to reuse my pedastal mount 1.7 ratio rockers, so I can't get too crazy with the lift.
Any info is appreciated. I will probably start ordering parts in about 6 months.
Thanks,
Craig
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93 LX Hatch, Dart Big Bore 347, Edelbrock 6037's, Cobra intake, Tremec, S-trim, 60# injectors, Tweecer RT
10.84 @ 128.5mph
Posts: 606 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Mar 2005
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