|
Author
|
Topic: d.s.s 396 last minute suggestions
|
JOSH
¯
Member # 979
|
posted
 
 
Anything I need to know before I make the call to D.S.S . I am ordering their 396ci AFR 185 long block for a street/strip 65 mustang.
--------------------
65 fastback mustang
410w 11:1 c-4 592fwhp 560fwtq
Posts: 75 | From: santa rosa | Registered: Mar 2002
| :
|
|
JoeT
¯
Member # 298
|
posted
why not a 408 or 427 ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) (sorry!)
--------------------
1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
| :
|
|
Jeff S
¯
Member # 371
|
posted
What kind of power are you trying to make? If it were my motor i'd use the AFR 205's with HR conversion.
--------------------
'90 Mustang LX: 8.53 @ 157.92 w/ 1.33 60' on DR's
'10 ZR1: FOR SALE
'14 E63 S: RENNtech ECU
'04 Gallardo: UGR TTG
Posts: 2121 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
| :
|
|
cobraman_1994
¯
Member # 467
|
posted
up the heads to a 205 and youll be very happy. well, either way, youll be happy ![[burnout]](graemlins/burnout.gif)
--------------------
86 GT
Posts: 4882 | From: eldorado hills | Registered: Sep 2001
| :
|
|
JOSH
¯
Member # 979
|
posted
shade-tree you had to go there ![[Mad]](mad.gif) j/k Im tring to make this thing last as long as possible.
The 205 long block is 400.00 more,
is there many hiddin costs like hedders or anything like that?
--------------------
65 fastback mustang
410w 11:1 c-4 592fwhp 560fwtq
Posts: 75 | From: santa rosa | Registered: Mar 2002
| :
|
|
JoeT
¯
Member # 298
|
posted
DOUBLE PSOST! ![[worship]](graemlins/worship.gif)
[ December 02, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
| :
|
|
JoeT
¯
Member # 298
|
posted
1 3/4" off the shelf headers would be like a cork on that motor. (Unless you keep the AFR 185's then it probably would be about right) I think they cost like $500 or so for the headers+H-pipe combo.
btw, there's something magical about the 427 number, IMHO
396 uses an overbore and 302 rods right? It's the budget stroker 351 FOR SURE. Leaps and bounds over a 351. Do you really need more than 40-50k miles from it?
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
| :
|
|
|
|
JOSH
¯
Member # 979
|
posted
quote:
check out the 351W's, 408's and 427's at www.BadAssCars.com before you do anything else...
They are about $1000.00 more than d.s.s are they worth it?
--------------------
65 fastback mustang
410w 11:1 c-4 592fwhp 560fwtq
Posts: 75 | From: santa rosa | Registered: Mar 2002
| :
|
|
Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
|
posted
396 with stock 302 rods, talk about ghetto racing. 1.32 is about the worst rod:stroke ratio i've ever heard of. most after market 396 kits have 5.956-6.125" rods depending on piston and deck height.
also why do you say 1 3/4" primaries are a cork? first it's almost impossible to fit a windsor in a 65 mustang (i hate the lack of room in my engine bay and it's a bigger 67), second i don't think you can fit 1 7/8" primarys on a stock flange because the bolts are too close so you need an adapter plate that offsets the screws. that also pushes the headers out another 1/4-1/2" and now those headers are never fitting in the car unless his shocktowers are gone. what other alternative does he have? i'm not flaming, i'm honestly asking for ideas because as of right now i'm stuck with 1 3/4 super comps with my blown 408. but back to the "cork" comment, mine'll still run 10s no problem with those "corks" bolted to the exhaust ports, i guarantee that.
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
| :
|
|
theguywhoknows
¯
Member # 2148
|
posted
Josh, "They are about $1000.00 more than d.s.s are they worth it?"
As onelowsplitbumper said in another thtread, you get what you pay for...
And to Mr. Paint Job, you are SO right. Who would want a 396 with stock 302 rods? JUNK! And that is one of the very things I mean about you get what you pay for. We use super long 6.250", 4340 H-beam rods with huge ARP 8740 7/16" bolts (which are actually a Chevy race rod) along with a light weight 4340 forged crank, JE super lite pistons, a REAL solid roller cam and valve train, killer machining and all sorts of other REAL parts in our engines... again, you get what you pay for.
Also, I have to disagree with you dude on the Windsors not fitting in 65/66 engine bays. We install LOTS of them (351W's, 408's, 427's) in 65 / 66's and I think they fit OK. I have built several easy 10 second daily driver's on stock suspensions that are naturally aspirated and single carbbed running pump gas and mufflers that run in the upper mid 10's. See Missy's 66 doing a wheel stand at Sears Point running a 10.78 @ 126MPH in stock trim (for one) in our Gallery at www.BadAssCars.com You've probably seen her at the track as she runs in Comp Rod class at Sac, Sears and many other's around the Western US, plus she drives this car around town as well... I think the 408's which are 351W based, fit pretty well and you are right, 1 3/4" tubes are fine for ANY car in the 9 to 10 second range and up to 427 cubic inches as long as the flange and header inlets are the same shape and same size and are hand blended to match as good as possible.
Smaller tubes only make for more velocity, and more velocity means better scavenging at lower RPM's, hence why Missy's car only uses a 4,000 RPM stall converter instead of a 5,500 or more... she has tons of torque. Bigger is NOT always better by any means. Keep up the fun guy's! That's what it's all about!
www.BadassCars.com
[ December 05, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: theguywhoknows ]
Posts: 22 | From: North Bay | Registered: Dec 2002
| :
|
|
JoeT
¯
Member # 298
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
396 with stock 302 rods, talk about ghetto racing.
excuse me if that's what other people do to make a cheap windsor stroker, I didn't come up with it...
quote:
also why do you say 1 3/4" primaries are a cork? first it's almost impossible to fit a windsor in a 65 mustang (i hate the lack of room in my engine bay and it's a bigger 67), second i don't think you can fit 1 7/8" primarys on a stock flange because the bolts are too close so you need an adapter plate that offsets the screws. that also pushes the headers out another 1/4-1/2
like you said, talk about ghetto racing. You build it right, or you improvise and ghetto rig it.
Maybe you want to find out how the outlaw cars setup their stuff?, no flames back, it's not like my car makes any power (it doesn't)
--------------------
1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
| :
|
|
yellow67stang
¯
Member # 903
|
posted
Isnt DSS just stock stuff with a girdle and some cheap pistons?
All that girdle is good for is keeping all the pieces attached when you blow up the bottom end.
Like someone said before. You get what you pay for!
Eric
--------------------
I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
| :
|
|
Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
|
posted
shade-tree, i have never seen afr 205s on an outlaw car in my life. maybe if someone said "are 1 3/4 primaries okay with my fully ported brodex neal heads?" then i'd have to say it's time to set up to a bigger set of headers.
theguywhoknows, i'm guessing you're, Arron. The windsor "fitting" is all a matter of oppinion. I have a 67 with a 408 and novi2000, it "fits" in the engine compartment and under the hood but i had to cut a hole in the shock tower to fit my air cleaner (now that's REAL ghetto racing). so in my oppinion it DOESN'T fit. yes a 351w fits between 65/66 shock towers but i know the shock towers are closer than mine and i wouldn't want to have any less room than i already have. It's such a tight fit you can't even use stock 65 motor mounts. so eventhough it fits without cutting anything, in my oppinion, there isnt enough room left over for it to count as "fitting"
oh and yeah i've seen missy's car at sac and sears a few times. mark at bayshore engine rebuilders is in love with her... but he's never talked to her. if she's single tell her to give him a call.
lastly, about this quote:
quote:
so if you think you're fast, ask her for a heads-up race and see who wins. Our money is on Missy! You go girl!
how much money are you willing to put on her? i have a 408 that i built in my garage that i'm willing to bet has more power than hers. oh and only a 2500 stall, it's a street car.
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
| :
|
|
JOSH
¯
Member # 979
|
posted
theguywhoknows(Arron?????????)
I have asked around and have been told that d.s.s was one of the best and used nothing but the best parts . What could you build me for $6000.00 . I have seen missy (shes hot)and her car is sweet what does she have in it.
--------------------
65 fastback mustang
410w 11:1 c-4 592fwhp 560fwtq
Posts: 75 | From: santa rosa | Registered: Mar 2002
| :
|
|
yellow67stang
¯
Member # 903
|
posted
You know Josh, what are you trying to do? What do you want for 6k? For 6k you can get a decent short block and then get to the heads.
All of the people that I have delt with and know about mail order engine companies, is that if its seems to be too good to be true than it most likely is.
Just because they have a flashy add in every Mustang Magazine does not make them the best.
I think I would buy a FMS 396 before I would by from DSS.
Just my .02
Eric
--------------------
I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
| :
|
|
theguywhoknows
¯
Member # 2148
|
posted
Hey onelowsplitbumper, your blown 408 sounds pretty cool, but remember, we are talkin about a naturally aspirated 408 here, not a blown 408, and Missy's is a nice engine, but certainly not even close to my all-out nasty race 408's and it is light years away from any of the supercharged engines I build. She's just a pump gasser and a fairly mild one at that compared to other engines I build. But even with that, she runs easy 10's with the front wheels up.
If you want a heads-up race between two blown cars, my own 65 Fastback has twin NOVI 1200's and twin 250 HP shots of nitrous if you want to play, but I'd have to race you in an all out "Cannon Ball Run" style race because my car isn't set-up for drag racing and launching off the line. It's my exehibition car that I take to shows with CNC'd Victor heads, an R-302 block, 4340 everything, roller everything and the best of the best everywhere else. You can say it runs quite well and makes well into the 4 digit HP area. I'm sure you'll see the car in some of the major shows in the bay area and beyond.
Josh, I can't really say anything bad about DSS. They are a good company and I know Eric over there (a good guy). They do build some nice engines and use some good parts in "most" of their engines. As with any company that advertises though (we don't do any advertising), they all have their "bargain" priced engines for the price shopper's out there. With DSS (and any other engine builder for that matter) you have to know what "series" engine to get. Don't just go by the size, HP rating and price of the engine.
Just because an engine is a 332, 347, 396, 408 or 427 stroker, doesn't mean its built as good as it can be, hence the stock 302 rods in one of the other 396 engines out there, where ours uses a VERY long 6.250" Chevy ( I know, bite my tongue) rods that are 4340 forged H-beam style. The saying is true, you get what you pay for and the real deal stuff ain't cheap. Hell, I build $45,000 engines for sand dragsters over seas, $30,000 boat engines and so on. So you can see that an engine price for the real stuff can jump WAY up, REAL fast.
Missy's car has a simple, decent 408 that has 11:1 compression, out of the box (untouched) Victor Jr. heads. One of my custom solid roller cams (.624" / .636" lift) which is small compared to the real race cams we use, JE pistons, a 4340 crank, one of our billet main supports, a ported Victor Jr. intake and a customized Holley 750 carb and that's really about it without getting into too much detail. It's nothing spectacular and it runs on 92 octane fuel and peels-off easy 10 second times with the front wheels off the ground with nothing more than 8" M/T cheater slicks, a 3.89 9" rear-end on stock leaf springs with slapper bars and not much else. That equates out to some pretty good power. Of course there is more to it than just that, but those are my secrets, and I could tell you some of them, but then I'd have to kill you afterwards... ha-ha-ha!!
One of our "real" race 408's (still naturally aspirated and single carbbed) would propell her car well into the 9's, although with her existing suspension, that would be pretty hard on the car and fairly dangerous to boot and I'm sure her car wouldn't pass tech for that kind of speed with what she has right now.
This winter, I am going to massage the heads a little, change-out the cam to a slightly more aggressive profile and maybe change the valve angles a bit and that's about it. That should drop her down about 2, or maybe even 3 more tenths and maybe gain about 5 MPH. We'll see.
I'm one of those guy's that say's nothing is final until the fat lady sings, and guess what my dyno's name is.... I call it "the fat lady"! Talk is cheap, but real numbers and time slips tell the truth. Good luck with your engine adventure and if I can be of any help (to ANY of you out there for that matter), please feel free to ask, OK? Have a good one everyone and remember, it's all about fun. :-)
www.BadAssCars.com
[ December 05, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: theguywhoknows ]
Posts: 22 | From: North Bay | Registered: Dec 2002
| :
|
|
JOSH
¯
Member # 979
|
posted
theguywhoknows
I have $6,000 to spend what could you build for me? I'll tell you what how about 6k and my 65 fastback for your 65 fastback. ![[dance]](graemlins/dance.gif)
--------------------
65 fastback mustang
410w 11:1 c-4 592fwhp 560fwtq
Posts: 75 | From: santa rosa | Registered: Mar 2002
| :
|
|
Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
|
posted
quote:
Hey onelowsplitbumper, your blown 408 sounds pretty cool, but remember, we are talkin about a naturally aspirated 408 here, not a blown 408, and Missy's is a nice engine, but certainly not even close to my all-out nasty race 408's and it is light years away from any of the supercharged engines I build. She's just a pump gasser and a fairly mild one at that compared to other engines I build. But even with that, she runs easy 10's with the front wheels up.
If you want a heads-up race between two blown cars, my own 65 Fastback has twin NOVI 1200's and twin 250 HP shots of nitrous if you want to play, but I'd have to race you in an all out "Cannon Ball Run" style race because my car isn't set-up for drag racing and launching off the line. It's my exehibition car that I take to shows with CNC'd Victor heads, an R-302 block, 4340 everything, roller everything and the best of the best everywhere else. You can say it runs quite well and makes well into the 4 digit HP area. I'm sure you'll see the car in some of the major shows in the bay area and beyond.
Arron, that was me who has that motor, not onelowsplitbumper, his 5.0 lost to a mini van last weekend.
I made that statement because my 408 is about a thousand times more streetable than hers. hydrolic roller, .585 lift, tfs head and intake, only 15# of boost, runs on 91 octane (hell it runs on 87 octane if i stay out of boost), has a 9" 3.89s and an AOD so i cruise at 80 mph at around 2500 rpm with the DFI computer making sure it gets atleast 17 mpg. 2500 stall, no trans brake, no wheels up, no violent launches (it's better that way since i don't even have a cage, i know it's gonna go straight). leaf springs and caltracks, oh and i'd even we willing to bring out my drag radials instead of slicks (dont really need slicks with the lack of stall and trans brake).
Your quote didnt say if there were any N/A cars that wanted to go heads up, just ANY cars that wanted to go heads up. So i figured my 100% street car vs her semi street car would be a fun race.
that's cool though, if you don't want to stand by the statement i don't mind. Just trying to get some good races.
i had an idea to put two novi2000 on a tunnel ram with two eblos on top but then about 5 mins later i realized how much hp i'd be losing by spinning both blowers off the crank. have you ever thought of ditching those two and going with a twin turbo set up? you'd probably make 100 more hp just from getting rid of the drive belt.
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
| :
|
|
Jeff S
¯
Member # 371
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
leaf springs and caltracks, oh and i'd even we willing to bring out my drag radials instead of slicks (dont really need slicks with the lack of stall and trans brake).
You'd even we willing??? What does that mean?
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
So i figured my 100% street car vs her semi street car would be a fun race.
that's cool though, if you don't want to stand by the statement i don't mind....i had an idea to put two novi2000 on a tunnel ram with two eblos on top but then about 5 mins later i realized how much hp i'd be losing by spinning both blowers off the crank. have you ever thought of ditching those two and going with a twin turbo set up? you'd probably make 100 more hp just from getting rid of the drive belt.
Look who needs a grammar lesson now! I've never seen so many sentences begin with a lower case letter in my life. Also, "i" is supposed to be capitalized. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ December 06, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Jeff S ]
--------------------
'90 Mustang LX: 8.53 @ 157.92 w/ 1.33 60' on DR's
'10 ZR1: FOR SALE
'14 E63 S: RENNtech ECU
'04 Gallardo: UGR TTG
Posts: 2121 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: Aug 2001
| :
|
|
|
|
theguywhoknows
¯
Member # 2148
|
posted
Mr Paint Job, as far as running the cars, sure, next time Sears Point is open and I'm out there, I'll run ya in my own car and I don't use slicks either :-) In fact, I'll stay off the bottle for ya too, OK?
If Missy wants to race you, that is up to her, being that it is her car and I have noting to do with it. I said I'll put my money on her car on my web site because car for car (in the same catagory, comparing apples to apples), I'd indeed put my money on her car. I certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to put money on a blown, computer controlled car against a naturally aspirated VINTAGE car. Hell, if you want to play that game and think you're hot enough to run against some real nasty cars, I can always get out my old A Alcohol nostalgia dragster and run you if you want. That isn't much different than putting your blown / computer controlled car against a naturally aspirated car like Missy's. Of course your car will make more power! That is a no brainer! So you might be pretty fast for a what you have, but you aren't a low 6 second car like my other car I co-own either...
And for turbo's, it is a farce that they make more power with less paracitic power loss than belt driven systems. Do the words, "exhaust restriction" mean anything? Top fueler's are THE most powerful V-8 engines on the planet. I have tinkered with a few in my day and I have numerous buddies that own top fuel boats, funny cars and dragsters, (in fact I was on several top fuel pit crews when I was younger, back in the 80's) and these boy's tip the dyno's at over 7,000HP on any given day and do they use turbo's? No way! Why? Because belt driven forced induction simply makes more power, faster.
Turbo's were tried back in the early 80's on two top fueler's that I can remember, and they choked! They just couldn't do what the belt drive blowers could do (you are talking about 200 PSI of boost here, OK? Not 40 or 50 like turbo's can handle) and it was as simple as that, hence why you don't see any blown fuel turbo'd dragsters out there. There's a reason for that and with unlimited budgets, top designer's and engine builder's and anything they could possibly want in this world at their finger tips, if turbo's worked better than belt drive systems, they'd be using them. Turbo's have their place in endurance situations such as F-1, Indy, Trans-Am and so on, (whicH I also dabble in from time to time) and blowers have their place as well, but saying that removing one of my belt drive superchargers would free-up more power is so not true.
Your car sounds great and please don't think I'm doggin' you or anything like that, 'cause I'm not. I just want to compare apples to apples and if you want a REAL race, it has to between the same types of cars, otherwise you might as well meet me out there when we have our other alcohol car running and believe me, we will be at half track before your rear tires are even past the christmas tree. Hey, it's all about fun man and everybody has their own thing. You have yours, Missy has her's and I have mine. Missy is only one of about 8 different other cars we have built similar to her's, (out of hundreds of cars over the years) but her's is the only local one that actually goes out and races for fun on Wednesday nights. The other cars, some a LOT faster than hers, are just show cars that wil never see the track or they just don;t play the Wednesday night deal because of the noise restrictions they have out there among other reasons.
One of my employees' uncle in Napa has a street driven 41 Willy's "OutLaw" with a blown alcohol all aluminum 575 cubic inch BOSS engine (based on a BOSS 429) It has a 14-71, fuel injected system, custom made BOSS 429 heads and so on and it easily makes 2,500+HP and still cruises at Hot August Nights. Not for very long though because of the icing-up on the injectors and the alcohol consumption, but never the less, he cruises it because it IS a street car, but you wouldn't want to put your car against a car like that because again, it is like comparing apples to bananas and there is just an unfair advantage.
Posts: 22 | From: North Bay | Registered: Dec 2002
| :
|
|
yellow67stang
¯
Member # 903
|
posted
Mr. "guywhoknows",
Have you been to a recent heads up event? If turbo's dont work than why are most people that can afford the costly switch doing it? Its the most realiable power adder that you can have!
The exahust restriction is minimal compared to the 100+hp power that can be lost on a d3r or f3 centrifical type blower. Besides with a turbo you never have to worry about those damn belts! Changing them every round can get exspensive!
Can you even run a turbo in a fueler? I don't even know if that is legal anyway. I know you cant run EFI and you need that to run any sucessful turbo setup! And Nitro would royaly screw up an EFI fuel system.
Maybe with more technology and time somebody will be able to to run a turbo type car in the NHRA. But why fix what is not broken?
And I think turbo technology has improved in 20 years. In fact, I know it has!
Eric
--------------------
I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
| :
|
|
JOSH
¯
Member # 979
|
posted
st5150
yep thats it.
theguywhoknows
You can always build me a blown 408 and I could compare apples to apples w/ Mr Paint Job .
--------------------
65 fastback mustang
410w 11:1 c-4 592fwhp 560fwtq
Posts: 75 | From: santa rosa | Registered: Mar 2002
| :
|
|
Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
|
posted
oh man where do I start, first Jeff, that made me laugh. I’ll go back to an school and learn an language. we=be of course.
Arron, first comparable cars to me means "street car vs street car" not "race car vs race car" so you're right, her car and my car are not comparable, mine is a street car... cd player and all. What with the capitalized "VINTAGE" thing? just because her car is one year old than mine makes hers vintage? I still have window cranks just like her.
Second, I have no cage and I have no desire to spend $20 for one run at a drag strip. I will be more than willing to race any car you own on the street. But if you want to compare apples to apples then you better be on 91 octane, getting more than 15 mpg, and idling at a steady 700 rpm.
Third, there isn't a dyno on the planet that can handle 7000 hp so this quote "and these boy's tip the dyno's at over 7,000HP on any given day" is a complete lie. also, why are screw type blowers outlawed in top fuel??? because they're too efficient and would out class a 1471 roots.
Third, onto the turbo thing... is your twin novi + n2o car a top fueler? is it seeing 200 psi? NO and NO so like I said "have you ever thought of ditching those two and going with a twin turbo set up?"
turbos in indy? I thought those were just motor but I dunno, I dont like seeing cars drive in circles so I dont really pay attention to them.
Does he cruise that Willy's TOOOO hot august nights? I drove mine from san mateo to reno, came in second in the burnout contest (second to my good friend kevin) then won the bracket racing the same day, made the cruise sunday, got my engine on FOX's hour coverage of Hot August Nights (took my hood off for the cruise), and then drove back home. (see I can brag too)
I don't care about your radical race cars that you build, i'm only into street cars like i've said before.
Lastly, just because it's driven on and off the trailer on a city street doesn't make it a street car.
Eric, if you got a turbo to work well in top fuel they'd just end up banning it to keep everyone running a roots.
quote:
theguywhoknows
You can always build me a blown 408 and I could compare apples to apples w/ Mr Paint Job .
if you want to compare apples to apples then my friend you have to build that 408 in your own garage, you have to be 22 and you have to convert your carbed 65 mustang over to efi. i have a feeling you might have a long way to go.
Arron, i'm sure you build great engines and i know you have WAY more knowledge than me (i'm only 22), i just find arguing fun.
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
| :
|
|
|
Email this post to someone!
Printer friendly view of this Ford topic
