This is topic 42's and tuning question in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by GTSLN97 (Member # 1849) on :
 
Just finished my s-trim install yestaurday. I put in 42lb injectors with a matching pro-m meter. It idles like shit, very rich, but when i'm actually driving it runs like a champ. Do you think my computer will learn to run better with these injectors or do I need a tune asap? Thanks.
 

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Posted by mustanggt5091 (Member # 444) on :
 
tune its worth it especially with boost
 

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Posted by TRY2PAZ (Member # 97) on :
 
DId you put the vortech chip in? If you did then you need a tune. I think the S-trim kit for your year came with 30's. I would not drive it until you get a tune.
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Anything 42# and up needs a tune to compensate as the injectors are too extreme for the stock EEC at this level
 

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Posted by GTSLN97 (Member # 1849) on :
 
i dont have any chip, stock tune. Its running really bad at idle, dies and shit... damn, imma have to wait hella long to get in for a tune too!
 

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Posted by TRY2PAZ (Member # 97) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by GTSLN97:
i dont have any chip, stock tune. Its running really bad at idle, dies and shit... damn, imma have to wait hella long to get in for a tune too!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Falcon50driver:
can you run 36#'s on a stock computer??

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quote:

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Originally posted by Falcon50driver:
can you run 36#'s on a stock computer??

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quote:

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Originally posted by TRY2PAZ:

quote:

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Originally posted by Falcon50driver:
can you run 36#'s on a stock computer??

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You can run up to around 50 lbs injectors on the stock computer with a tuned chip. Talk to Byron at racesystems. I know the stock computer will not keep up with anything bigger than 50.

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Well whether or not you can get 36 # injectors to run on a stock computer really depends on your combination of parts and ECM. I've seen a few cars which are able to pull it off and others that cannot. It really comes down to how well your MAF is calibrated for your given combo. Also how well a person is able to tune other areas outside of the computer. The mechanical things such as tps settings, throttle along those lines. Like I mentioned before anything that carries 42#ers and up is almost surely going to need an on board chip or pcm flash to correctly run. A combination featuring 36# injectors certainly has driveability to gain with an on board chip or pcm flash as programming tailored to your particular combo will always turn out the best results. Even with a finely tuned MAF there is almost always room for improvements through tuning at the 36# level. 42# injectors is really the cutting off point for high impedence injectors. A stock pcm is programmed to run on high impedence injectors. At the 50# levels most injector companies switch from High to Low impedence injectors which isn't as simple as a common chip tune. At this level either the pcm is re-flashed to except low impedence programming or there is an inline box with takes the low impedence signal from the injectors and converts it to high impedence ahead of the pcm. I believe the company which sells this inline box is located here in Pleasanton or this is the location of a distributor selling such a product.

[ April 24, 2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: mtbaughs ]
 

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Posted by Falcon50driver (Member # 3852) on :
 
I just picked up some 42's and Pro M draw through calibrated for 42's I also have a diablo chip which i'm sending out for my new combo, will I be alright with that chip tune and a simple home tune ti'll I can get a dyno tune??.....also I live in the penninsula is there any other place other than ApeX that's does' tunes close by?? Thanks for all the input.
 

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Posted by TRY2PAZ (Member # 97) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Falcon50driver:
I just picked up some 42's and Pro M draw through calibrated for 42's I also have a diablo chip which i'm sending out for my new combo, will I be alright with that chip tune and a simple home tune ti'll I can get a dyno tune??.....also I live in the penninsula is there any other place other than ApeX that's does' tunes close by?? Thanks for all the input.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mtbaughs:
Theres other places but they use different software. Dyno labs in San Ramon is one which uses SCT tuning software

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I keep hearing about this place. My question to you is (and sorry about borrowing your thread man) if they're using different software, what is needed chip wise? Not an autologic chip I'm guessing?
 

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Posted by GTSLN97 (Member # 1849) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the50ho:

quote:

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Originally posted by mtbaughs:
Theres other places but they use different software. Dyno labs in San Ramon is one which uses SCT tuning software

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I keep hearing about this place. My question to you is (and sorry about borrowing your thread man) if they're using different software, what is needed chip wise? Not an autologic chip I'm guessing?

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its all good, i wanna know this too. Thats closer for me and I need a tune.
 

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Posted by the50ho (Member # 73) on :
 
ttt
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Ray uses SCT software which is superchips. This would require a different chip than an autologic. As far as results from this place I can't say for certain since I've never been there. I am meeting with Ray tomorrow to discuss some business and I should have a feel for the place at this time.

EDIT: I can't confirm that an autologic chip will not work here just yet. I have heard Mike Westley from chipmaster (autologic) may have teamed with superchips to release this SCT software which may feature autologic style chips. Will keep you all posted as to what I find

[ April 26, 2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: mtbaughs ]
 

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Posted by the50ho (Member # 73) on :
 
cool, thanks mike. I'm interested to know more on this software and tuning, so please....as you find out more report back!

I think with the aftercooler and a couple very other small things it may be time to go back for a nice summer tune.
 

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Posted by GTSLN97 (Member # 1849) on :
 
Hey. I just talked to them. It is $599 for everything. It is extra if you want more than 1 tune. But the 599 includes everything but tax. Seems like not too bad of a deal and its a lot closer for me than anywhere else.
 

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Posted by 98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX' (Member # 895) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by GTSLN97:
Hey. I just talked to them. It is $599 for everything. It is extra if you want more than 1 tune. But the 599 includes everything but tax. Seems like not too bad of a deal and its a lot closer for me than anywhere else.

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quote:

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Originally posted by GTSLN97:
Hey. I just talked to them. It is $599 for everything. It is extra if you want more than 1 tune. But the 599 includes everything but tax. Seems like not too bad of a deal and its a lot closer for me than anywhere else.

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Does that include a 'courtesy reach around'?
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
LOL. hey thats not right.
 

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Posted by the50ho (Member # 73) on :
 
dude...600 bucks for a tune? if that's the case, I'll definately be calling anderson ford motorsport.

[ April 28, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: the50ho ]
 

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Posted by twstd5o (Member # 1981) on :
 
I think it's 499 unless it just went up this week...

The good thing about Dynolabs is that the tune throughout the entire week, not just on weekends.

I called to make an appt on a friday and was in the next tuesday.
 

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Posted by the50ho (Member # 73) on :
 

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Originally posted by twstd5o:
I think it's 499 unless it just went up this week...

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JESUS...FOR WHAT???

There better be a 'happy ending" in there for that price....jesus. either they charge $250 an hour, or takes HOURS on end to tune the car.

Anyone have some insight on this?
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Well in Tony's case this is my opinion on things Jack. You have the basic cost for the chip. Following that I know Ray spent at least 6 hours on his car doing the tuning. I know what you are use to at apex is a wham bam dyno mam. I contribute this to the fact that byron has simply seen so many cars with so many different combo's that he is able to pull a file up make small tweaks and your done. As far as why Ray spent so much time on Tony's car I can only guess. It could be that this particular car was difficult to dial in. This certainly could be the case since Tony's injectors had to be maxed out to deliver enough fuel. The other consideration here might be that Ray doesn't have the computer full of prior tunes for similar combo's like Byron does and each car becomes a brand new program starting from scratch. In any case it appears as though Ray is willing to put the time into making things right. Whether or not the cost is acceptable is a personal thing. Things are not run there like they can be at Apex where this car has X amount of time before it has to be off the dyno for the next one in line. It will be interesting to see what comes out of dyno labs in the near future because with the more cars Ray gets his hands on the more likely things are that he will gain that computer full of programs to pick at.
 

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Posted by the50ho (Member # 73) on :
 
well damn...that's EXACTLY what I've been wanting to hear about ANY shop when it comes to dyno tuning.

Cost is not an issue..I just want to make sure it's correct, and if hours on end is what it takes, and it costs that much more...then so be it.

Sounds like a good place overall thus far...anyone else had personal experiences there yet?
 

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Posted by GTSLN97 (Member # 1849) on :
 
I am probabley going to go through him. How much does apex charge for chip and tune?
 

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Posted by dynolabs (Member # 4424) on :
 
Hi all,

Here's a brief rundown on the reason SCT tune sessions take a little longer than what most folks are used to. SCT software allows fine tuning of the MAF transfer function. This is key for getting your long/short fuel trims within +/- 5% correction. What that means is the EEC does not have to add/remove a whole lot of injector pulsewidth (fuel) to maintain the commanded air/fuel ratio in the base fuel table. The result is a crisp throttle response and improved drivability. Dyno Labs tunes the entire MAF transfer function from idle to redline. Mike is correct about being able to re-use standard tune values for things like injector size, MAF, axle ratios, timing maps, fuel maps, etc. But the one thing that is unique in each car is getting that last 10-20% of the MAF transfer function dialed in. No two cars are alike in this area. A good example is the fact that most people that buy mail order chips end up sending them back several times for retunes and ultimately give up. This is because it is guesswork since the seller doesnt know what the MAF is doing. Even more critical is that without data logs, the seller doesnt know if the customers blown car has a MAF pegging (maxing out at the 5 volt limit) before the car is done reving - really bad and could lead to dangerously lean conditions. The rest of our tune sessions cover extensive data logging, careful WOT tuning, road testing and fixing drivability issues with customers cars. Issues like coast down shuffle, hanging idle after clutch-in, stumble, idle quality, partial throttle hesitation, shift quality, etc. SCT allows fine tuning of all these other areas of operation. With the awesome capability of SCT's new software, it is only natural that we would extend that capability to our customers through comprehensive tune sessions.

Happy motoring!
Ray
 

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Posted by Black94 5.0 (Member # 655) on :
 
Ray, great info...Thanks for taking the time and explaining your "tunes"...

I know as soon as I need a custom tune, I know who I'm going to...
 

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Posted by GTSLN97 (Member # 1849) on :
 
yeah, i know where I am goign to take my car, as soon as i sell my nitrous kit
 

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