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Author
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Topic: brake booster difference
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OneFastHatch.
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Member # 9537
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posted
 
 
how can you tell the difference between stock 91 booster and a 95 cobra booster ? im having issues with my brakes.
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1991 fobra (slow)
Posts: 2139 | From: bay area | Registered: Oct 2009
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racsirx
CAFords OG
Member # 1710
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posted
The 95 Cobra is bigger, it says cobra on it and it's a pain to install on a fox
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88 Saleen #564
88 GT 331 NOVI2000
88 Coupe TURBO 9.75@142
95 Cobra R #75-SOLD
06 F250
13 BMW AH3
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Posts: 20750 | From: Concord & Pittsburg, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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OneFastHatch.
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Member # 9537
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i hear to use the 93 cobra brake booster for the 5 lug swap? my pedal feels so stiff and doesnt brake at all.
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1991 fobra (slow)
Posts: 2139 | From: bay area | Registered: Oct 2009
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racsirx
CAFords OG
Member # 1710
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by OneFastHatch.:
i hear to use the 93 cobra brake booster for the 5 lug swap? my pedal feels so stiff and doesnt brake at all.
Good luck finding oem 93 Cobra boosters, even the 93 Cobra booster is a pain to install, stock booster should work fine, but some people use 94-95 GT boosters also, modify the 4 holes on the firewall and clearance the strut tower a little and it will make your job easier.
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88 Saleen #564
88 GT 331 NOVI2000
88 Coupe TURBO 9.75@142
95 Cobra R #75-SOLD
06 F250
13 BMW AH3
17 GT350 #5556
GOD'S NOT DEAD
Posts: 20750 | From: Concord & Pittsburg, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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KARATExxCHUCK
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Member # 12851
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by racsirx:
quote:
Originally posted by OneFastHatch.:
i hear to use the 93 cobra brake booster for the 5 lug swap? my pedal feels so stiff and doesnt brake at all.
Good luck finding oem 93 Cobra boosters, even the 93 Cobra booster is a pain to install, stock booster should work fine, but some people use 94-95 GT boosters also, modify the 4 holes on the firewall and clearance the strut tower a little and it will make your job easier.
Didn't even have to post a thread.
I'm converting my fox to all around cobra disc brakes. Can I use a 94-95 brake booster and still have them stop
to there full potential?
Charles ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
Merry Christmas ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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**Sometimes you must kill the snake to walk the path!!
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Posts: 1286 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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posted
Does the master cylinder ring a BELL!!!
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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the stock booster makes the pedal stiff if converted to 4 wheels disc, but can yes work. the 93 cobra booster fits much easier than the 95 gt booster but also yes is harder to find. the 95 yes like said above your having to grind open the holes and even sometime have to beat in part of the strut tower to fit in the 95 booster, its the hardest thing to fit in there. last i checked u can still get the 93 booster at kragens an such places. i hope u still can at least. if your booster goes out as well it will give u a stupid stiff pedal. tom i didn't think it was the master cause i was just over there an he has a fairly new looking master, the pedal doesn't sink at all, and this guy knows how to bleed brakes. he said stiff pedal, bad masters doesn't give u a stiff pedal. the best control or softer controllable pedal i think was the 93 or 95 booster with the 95 master but some have liked the even softer pedal with the 93 master cause of the slighter smaller piston size. post a pic of your booster jordan im not sure which one u have, i think its a stocker but not sure.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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Duncan if in fact his booster is not operating properly that is an issue. He should have power assist. But when many convert ot lets say an electric booster like on the TC or 4 wheel disc you need a smaller bore cylinder. We come across this all the time. Sometimes we use a dual area power booster to gain more pedal feel. Basically yo are dealing with a pedal ratio of around 3.8 and that is border line. Pedal ratio and master selection along with a good booster is the key. When guys convert the TC they always mess this up. Some of the cougar and Lincoln boosters and masters work better. Just a thought.
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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lol man u lost me on all that stuff, never messed with electric or hydro boost at all. yeah he never mentioned on here he had a stiff pedal as i just looked through the notes. but that was the main complaint he has a stiff pedal and the car wouldn't stop or doesn't stop on a dime so to say. an as i was looking at his car it looked like a stock booster. i told him to upgrade or go on here too tell the difference, as he was just wanting to know what the difference visually on the two boosters, and then we got here lol. im not very familiar with other car swaps by heart other than these fords.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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Dunkin Here is a dual area unit found on an earlier Mustang. It has a 7/8 bore master and works great on a 4 wheel disc conversion. Also a Lincoln unit is also a good choice.
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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RAP66
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Member # 3360
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posted
I'll be doing the same conversion but with 94-95 master and stock booster
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91GT Kurgan Tuned:12lbs of boost 492.4 rwhp / 483.1 rwtq
http://killcarb.org/
www.fordstrokers.com
Posts: 893 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Oct 2003
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OneFastHatch.
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Member # 9537
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posted
could my issue be that the plundger isnt hitting the master enough?
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1991 fobra (slow)
Posts: 2139 | From: bay area | Registered: Oct 2009
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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posted
That is a possibility and easy to check. Do this with the engine not running pump all the stored vacuum out of the booster. Then lightly apply pressure to the pedal. While doing this start the engine and see if the pedal sinks a bit. if not the booster is shot or not getting vacuum. make sure it has a good vacuum supply!!
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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quote:
Originally posted by RAP66:
I'll be doing the same conversion but with 94-95 master and stock booster
Ok what is the diameter of the master. If memory serves me i think it is just larger than one inch. If so it may be a bad choice.
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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RAP66
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Member # 3360
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
quote:
Originally posted by RAP66:
I'll be doing the same conversion but with 94-95 master and stock booster
Ok what is the diameter of the master. If memory serves me i think it is just larger than one inch. If so it may be a bad choice.
It's 1 1/16" bore 94-95 master cylinder.
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91GT Kurgan Tuned:12lbs of boost 492.4 rwhp / 483.1 rwtq
http://killcarb.org/
www.fordstrokers.com
Posts: 893 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Oct 2003
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OneFastHatch.
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Member # 9537
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posted
it has a brand new booster. any one spare there phone number? so i can send them the pic and they can post it
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1991 fobra (slow)
Posts: 2139 | From: bay area | Registered: Oct 2009
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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posted
Well if it has a 1 1/6 bore you will never get a good pedal,You need a smaller master. One that is closer to 7/8./ This is the problem the pedal does not have enough mechanical advantage and in most cases can not be changed. So only remedy is a master with a smaller diameter bore. Anything over an inch is way to big!!!
Here is a master i am modifying to accommodate a 4 wheel disc system on a gm application. It is from a WS6 Pontiac and going in a vette to up date for 4 piston calipers
The push rod well had to be deeper so i drilled it to accommodate the vette push rod
Here it is installed with ABS delete and an adjustable Proportioning valve. The car stops on a DIME and i replaces all the factory hard line with Copper Ferrous for rot resistance. Note the home made mount for the adjustable valve. They work great. This car can send you through the windo when it brakes hard.
[ 2013-11-21, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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posted
the 94 95 master is absolutely fine. so is the cobra, so is the svo which has the biggest bore of them all. go to north car race brackets or any ford mustang disc rear brake conversion writes ups ON THESE MATTERS. READ THEIR ACTUALLY TRIED AND TESTED TRUE WRITES UP,S THAT TRULY KNOW HOW BRAKES WORK, AND ESPECIALLY MUSTANG ONES WITH OUR SWAPPING OF PARTS. THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE ALL THIS HOMEWORK AS I HAVE FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY MYSELF. the masters are supposed to be matched up with the caliper piston size, the booster is just a pressure sensitive booster for the actual brake master, so on drum u dont need that much pressure so they use a lower pressure booster stock, on disc they need more so u get a 93 cobra or 94 0r 95 or svo BOOSTER. THOSE BOOSTERS WHERE MADE TO HAVE MORE ASSIST PRESSURE FOR THE DISC BRAKES, take it from me or every other major ford conversion specialist ON THE MATTER, the smaller bore piston is only moving what its bore can do , small amounts, so pedal is easy PUSHING NOT MUCH FLUID, PERFECT FOR DRUM BRAKES AS WELL WITH THERE VERY LIL SLAVE CYLINDER, with a stock booster that doesn't boost or assist much the pedal might feel fine.
NOW FOR DISC, CAUSE THAT IS THE SUBJECT, but with a 95 master the bore is much bigger and requires more foot muscles to push. stock DRUM booster will BE very stiff, and worse with a bigger bore master, but that's what the newer disc brake boosters are for THESE CONVERSIONS ONLY, to assist it more making the pedal feel right and normal. now if u have lil pistons in the calipers not much fluid is needed to push the calipers into motion, but if u start getting into the svo or Lincoln calipers with the 75 or 73, OR 2 OR EVEN 4 piston CALIPERS your pedal will feel more spongy or soft cause its taking more fluid to push the bigger OR MULTIPLE bore caliper, thus needing a bigger master, anything smaller than the 1 inch 93 master can barley hold up WITH ITS SMALL 54 FRONT PISTON CALIPER.
on this matter do not listen to tom renzo at all. this is not rocket science, or conversions from vettes master to buick or caddy brakes what ever Frankenstein stuff hes talking about, this is normal all ford stuff that on fox bodys we are basically copying exactly what 94 95 mustang have as stock, more than fine braking system. we could just basically swap everything right over but the 94 95 is a bit heavier and more so in the rear, so if we did swap over the fox,s would start skidding out from the rear wheel so as everybody see,s we use the adjustable brake bias to cut some of that rear braking down to make it normal again. tom renzo is not a idiot but has no clue on whats hes talking about on this matter at all. dont try and reinvent the wheel that ford has already proven to us. i understand what tom renzo is saying and it will make u have a fake gd feeling on the pedal. but the car will not stop to anything near its full potential. there is many writes ups all saying the same thing, THEY EVEN GIVE U A MATCHED FORMULA WITH ALL PARTS I LISTED. 93 cobra WITH 1 INCH BORE MASTER, 95 mustang disc brake booster with a 1 an BIGGER whatever bore, a older svo 4 wheel disc car as well, disc brake booster and biggest brake bore of them all. those car stop on a dime!!!!! small or big bore on a drum master FOR DISC BRAKES is a no go! IT MIGHT WORK BUT YOUR STOPPING CAR FOOTAGE WILL BE BLOCKS DOWN THE ROAD WHILE ILL STOP BEFORE U STARTED TO STOP. no matter what u do it will not stop the car on a dime! but when u got all 4 wheels needing more fluid than the lil half pint the drums use, u half to deliver the mass correct amount of fluid pressurized by the proper master assisted by the proper disc booster.
tom can u please do some read up or own a mustang and actually do some work on these such matters AT LEAST ON MUSTANGS IF YOUR GONNA PREACH CORVETTE BRAKES ON A MUSTANG FORUM, maybe go test out your theory's of these poorly pointed out brakes suggestions instead of spitting them out as facts, cause they are not by far being close to correct in these above matters. the info u gave out on this forum and your correct as always approach will mislead some of these guys and probably cause them to wreck to there death OR THERE CARS DEATH. i have tried to miss match and Frankenstein these brakes systems as all to well myself. more so when i was heavy into the road race cars. me myself an many others have tested all of these parts in every scenario possible, i DO KNOW WHAT THE HELL IM TAKING ABOUT, I DO KNOW WHAT IT TAKES ON THESE CARS TO STOP ON A DIME. I HAVE A C5 VETTE AND MY 89 STANG OR ANY OF THESE MUSTANGS I DEAL IN THAT ARE CLOSE TO THESE 4 WHEEL DISCS ALL STOP BETTER THAN The VETTE, THAT,S ON A DIME!! NOT JUST WHAT FEELS GOOD ON THE PEDAL WITH IM SORRY TO SAY FRANKENSTEIN ETHICS THAT MIGHT WORK ON A CHEVY.
[ 2013-11-22, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Duncan Motors ]
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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posted
I UNDERSTAND THAT U ARE TRULY TRYING TO HELP, AND IM SURE U HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE ON MANY CARS. but not saying mustangs are some special breed of cars but what works on another car does not work on another, having true experience instead of reading some write ups on a certain car does not apply to all. im wrong alot as i just forget some stuff or maybe i mis read some stuff or just had a brain fart, but on this matter its brakes!!!!! most of all important to me is the dam brakes, and the way u are telling these folks there brakes will work is incredible under powering the brake systems to there possible death. i have read many read ups and tried and tested these parts with cars that are actually on the track where brakes are mostly needed and tested to there utmost potential. funny thing is u post a picture of a vette that already come 4 wheel disc brakes. there booster is already set up,no swaps or updates are needed. if u did some research u would know on mustangs they are not and there is a difference on disc to drum boosters. have a gd day hopefully u do some reading before u possible end peoples car careers quicker than they wanted.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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Duncan let me bow out and you can carry the ball. Only problem you do not understand brakes. As brakes are simple a matter of fluid science and mechanical advantage and pedal ratios. So do as you please and i will be silent on this from now on. By the way i think you should do some research on brakes and what works. Now the vette i converted is in fact a 4 wheel disc car. And everyone knows that the early C4 brakes suck big time. So i converted it to C5 ZO6 and now it stops like a dream. So all is good in the world with the Vette at least . By the way i work with Welwood on some applications and we have lengthily discussions on this matter. Sorry to disappoint you Duncan. Have a great weekend Tom!! Rule of thumb The smaller the master diameter the further the pedal travels. BUT!!! The higher the hydraulic pressures applied at set lbs. Most brake systems are designed around 100 PSI of foot pressure for normal stopping and application. Naturally yo need enough volume to apply the brakes depending on the area of the pistons. If you are using single pistons compared to lets say 6 piston jobs i have on my pontiac. So go with the 1 1/8 master and see what the results are. Once again Duncan that car has a pedal ratio of exactly 3.78888. So simple math along with cylinder diameter will tell you the foot pressure you need to apply the BINDERS!!! Thanks Tom
[ 2013-11-22, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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posted
XX
[ 2013-11-22, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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posted
svo has a 1 inch by 1/8 or 1/16 master. what svo are u talking about cause by measuring them and doing all my read ups on a mustang that's the biggest they got. enough of the vette talk that's where ur getting confused, everything on a c4 sucks but still has four wheel brakes. welcome to a ford forum. not sure if the vette had a svo master or if that's another one of your Frankenstein conversions but again where did u get the svo has a small bore? small by what standards lol? again the op wanted to know what brake booster he has which still hasn't been answered, I think he has a stock one. and your putting pictures of vettes lol. talking about svo,s have small bores, again think mustang not vette. have u every seen a svo? have u ever read a article about mustang brakes? or svo masters? but wilwood? im glad u called them for technical information for a short bit , and had a conversation, maybe call them back and ask some more questions before your preaching. u should really call some of these places that deal in fox body disc conversions, they know all the proper sizes and fancy stuff ratio to ratios u said. i hey have a lousy way of explaining it i guess.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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OK DISCUSSION DUN ONCE YOU START WITH FRANKENSTEIN STUFF I AM DUN. THANK YOU By the way brakes are brakes once again the math has to be DUN. So i gave you the pedal ratio run with it. Have a good weekend
[ 2013-11-22, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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Duncan Motors
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Member # 7045
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dont delete your post of svo,s having small bores!!! whats wrong u actually read something? maybe got confused? its all understandable but dont lie and try to hide your mis directions, and cry or have a Frankenstein plea out lol. u said svo,s have small bore dia? correct? u said it lol. what happened tom? why did u erase your post? u seen i was right? lol common man i seen ur miss leads of a brake system that yes would give the pedal a decent feel, i already knew what that combo would feel like cause ive done it, i also seen how long it took for the car to stop and have been around long enough to know others complaints, from that same combo. the ori post was what brake booster does the guy above have? if u dont know what booster he has what the hell u comment for? u mention has anyone thought of a master cylinder as the problem lol. the rod not being portioned correctly can only do two things either give u a really low pedal or a stiff one cause the brake are being applied partially full time from the rod being to far out. anyways your owned for the day but i still salute u for dedicating your time trying to help as do i. u have been very help full in many post and i hope u continue to do so. i know u know cars, i don't know shit about a c4 vette beside id rather own a camaro of that year. ive forgotten more than i remember as i work on everything too,couldnt tell u a single firing order to any car made! that some truth right their lol. but mustangs i highly deal in and track tested many different things, im always curiuse on updates with these cars in particular, but as for brakes i feel these the things most important in these already over powered flimsy non braking cars. so ive tested them many times with guys at the track so my learning curve on these brake matters is pretty gd. as in whats gona brake the best from 100 mph down, the best, with no brake fade, gd pedal feel, and properly proportioned travel as well. an when u get mad ur spelling gets worse than mine lol have a gd day tom really, im def not calling u stupid by any means, you'll school me another day im sure.
Posts: 6310 | From: Vallejo | Registered: Sep 2006
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Tom Renzo
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Member # 13165
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You are aware of the fact that Mustangs have 2 different pedals??? The SVO has a different ratio. And i did erase the post as i was thinking of something else made a typo sorry . But in the years i have been building brake systems i think i have enough knowledge to post on it. So lets start over. I said a cylinder of app 1" is a good starting point. Going from 1- 1 1/8 is a big difference. naturally you need volume to fill up a brake system with lets say 6 pistons on front and a pair in the rear . lets say single piston rears. You have to figure out the amount of fluid you want to move how and where that pedal will travel and PSI applied to the system. Also doing this and not exceeding a pedal pressure over 100 Psi industry standards. Now basically a ratio of 4-1 Power or hydro and a min of 6-1 on manual Once again industry standards. So i am fully aware of push rod length as you can see in my post as i drilled the WS6 cylinder deeper to accommodate the Vetts booster push rod length. By the way i discussed this with the engineers at Wellwood as i talk to them on a regular basis. The booster in the Vette is made in AUSTRALIA and also some of the other components. That is why i had to modify the EARS and the piston rod depth. I am no stranger to brakes and getting a good balance on the Mustang or for that matter a TC is difficult. That is why i modify the pedal ratio. Naturally you do not know me and i respect that and i do not know you either. But i think we have walked the walk. Built using the Frankenstein word made me laugh. Because that is what you are doing. Fitting a cylinder and booster from a different car. This is called MODS or building cars called performance ones. I will post the difference in the pedal ratio of different mustangs including the SVO of which i work on on a regular basis. I am sure your credentials warrants my respect. Thank You
Here is just a couple of booster suited for 4 wheel multi piston calipers with a cylinder app 1 inch
[ 2013-11-22, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
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I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know.
Posts: 557 | From: CT | Registered: Sep 2013
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