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Author
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Topic: Trick Flow Twisted Wedge or Edelbrock Performer 1.90's?
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
 
 
Hello all just wanted to get some opinions on which setup I should use.
I just picked up a 306. This was the one Lee had for sale awhile back. Roughly 30k miles on it. Cylinders have a lot of cross hatch left in them. Rotating assembly has been balanced. I plan on throwing all new gaskets on it and cleaning it up prior to install.
Now, here's my problem:
I have two sets of heads. One brand new set of Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 170cc O-Ringed Heads with Ford Racing 1.6 roller rockers, and one set of Edelbrock Performer 1.90" Heads with Omega 1.72 roller rockers that have ported bowls and are gasket matched to fel pro intake gaskets.
The engine setup is going to be supercharged 8psi full bolt ons and supporting mods in a 93 coupe. Holley Systemax intake, power pipe, shorty headers etc
The pistons are Speed Pro H273CP .030" Hyperutectic. The block has a Crane 2040 Compucam which from what I understand is the same as Ford Racing's E303 Cam
The Pro's For Edelbrock IMO:
-Take standard head gaskets(I already have a brand new set of head gaskets for these heads)
-Take Pedestal Mount Roller Rockers(install and torque down with little to no adjustment needed)
-Do not require hardened pushrods(since there is no pushrod guide plate) so I can re-use my current pushrods
-Ported/Polished bowls and gasket matched to fel pro intake gaskets
-1.72 Roller Rockers
The Con's For Edelbrock IMO:
-Less Power than TFS TW?
-1.90" Intake Valve
-Might have piston to valve clearance problem due to 1.72 ratio roller rocker arms with crane 2040 cam
The Pro's For Trick Flow IMO:
-More Power than the Edelbrocks?
-2.02" Intake Valve
The Con's For TFS TW IMO:
-Requires more expensive O-Ringed Head Gaskets(would have to buy)
-Stud Mount Rocker Arms require adjustment initially(I've never done this before)
-Must Buy & Use Hardened Pushrods
-Must buy/borrow pushrod measuring tool to determine pushrod length
-1.6 Roller Rockers
-Might have piston to valve clearance problems due to 2.02" intake valve
So, basically what it boils down to is do you guys think I should spend the extra money to get all of the stuff needed to run the trick flow heads? If the TFS TW would make more power, how much are we talking? 10whp? More?
I contacted the manufacturer and they say that these pistons should work fine with the trick flow heads. Lee also thinks they will be compatible, but recommends claying them to be sure.
If I do not use my TFS TW Heads I still plan on using them in the future, so they would not be going to waste. My original plan for the TFS Heads was to build a mild stroker like a 327cid with a boss block all forged, custom cam from hi tech motorsports etc
Thanks
Brandon
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
Id use the eddies.
With boost it will torch tho pistons at the drop of a hat so either head, dont matter.....might as well have a band aid headgasket pop and o ring ones are tougher than non.....so my vote is for the eddies.
Id sell the motor and use the funds to freshen up your existing forged piston shortblock. Arent you a wideband tuning guy if I remember right? One lean moment and by by ring lands. On those hypers.....the after market hypers, regardless of who makes them just arent as tough as the factory hypers.........
Dan
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
If I do not use my TFS TW Heads I still plan on using them in the future, so they would not be going to waste. My original plan for the TFS Heads was to build a mild stroker like a 327cid with a boss block all forged, custom cam from hi tech motorsports etc
Thanks
Brandon
This sounds like a WAY better plan!!! Then you can make it an animal!!
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
Oh and your 273s are CP in the part number. WAY better piston than the old 273s which arent coated but they are much weaker around the wrist pin than the stock hypers for sure.
Also, the valve cuts are very deep in these pistons so tho I would ALWAYS check PTV clearance, I doubt you will have ANY issues. If I remember right I had like .180 clearance on the intake side with a GT40 P head!!!
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.
Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.
Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.
Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.
Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
I think if your current shortblock is in good shape then you are wasting your dollars, until your beast motor gets built......but its your money and my opinion and we all know those are like assholes.....
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.
Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.
Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
I think if your current shortblock is in good shape then you are wasting your dollars, until your beast motor gets built......but its your money and my opinion and we all know those are like assholes.....
I picked up this 306 shortblock for about what I could rebuild my current shortblock shortblock for. So I figured it would be a good way to go. Plus it's balanced, so actually less than I could have rebuilt and balanced my current shortblock for. I just figured it should be able to last until I get my other setup done. A year of less hopefully. I'm just tired of seeing my Mustang sit in the garage.
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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racsirx
CAFords OG
Member # 1710
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posted
I want to state that I didn't sell him the motor, I sold it to someone else, who sold it to him, I wont use those pistons with boost.
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88 Saleen #564
88 GT 331 NOVI2000
88 Coupe TURBO 9.75@142
95 Cobra R #75-SOLD
06 F250
13 BMW AH3
17 GT350 #5556
GOD'S NOT DEAD
Posts: 20750 | From: Concord & Pittsburg, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.
Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.
Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
I think if your current shortblock is in good shape then you are wasting your dollars, until your beast motor gets built......but its your money and my opinion and we all know those are like assholes.....
I picked up this 306 shortblock for about what I could rebuild my current shortblock shortblock for. So I figured it would be a good way to go. Plus it's balanced, so actually less than I could have rebuilt and balanced my current shortblock for. I just figured it should be able to last until I get my other setup done. A year of less hopefully. I'm just tired of seeing my Mustang sit in the garage.
It should last.
HO motors are balanced within 3-4 grams from the factory.
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by racsirx:
I want to state that I didn't sell him the motor, I sold it to someone else, who sold it to him, I wont use those pistons with boost.
It was a good deal either way. I remember the motor.
Dan
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by racsirx:
I want to state that I didn't sell him the motor, I sold it to someone else, who sold it to him, I wont use those pistons with boost.
This is correct. I bought this from the person who bought it from Lee.
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
I was checking the federal mogul sight and they state these pistons are able to bebe used in moderate supercharging applications. Why would they make such a bolt statement if their pistons wouldnt hold up to boost?
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
I was checking the federal mogul sight and they state these pistons are able to bebe used in moderate supercharging applications. Why would they make such a bolt statement if their pistons wouldnt hold up to boost?
Because its a conspiracy, we are all trying to get over on you and get your awesome shortblock from you!! LMFAO
Im totally kidding.
Manufacturers make TONS of bullshit claims you know?
I mean why does KN say its filter will make 30 more horsepower on my turbo diesel when that is complete bullshit?
LOL
If you get technical, which I notice you always do in your posts and that is GREAT. You always question things, have doubts, try stuff your own and make your own decisions. That is GREAT!....I digress,,,,,if you get into it hyper pistons are actually rated at a TOTAL HP rating from what I read and understand.
That said, if you have a motor making (theoretical numbers only) 600hp on motor with these pistons rated at say 600hp..and you add boost or some other power adder.....well you get the idea.
The low end scat rotators are rated to 550hp yet hold up to 1,000hp all the time.....
The dss main girdle motors STILL come apart...
Well.....you get my drift.
All in all I guess it is a mute point because the block will go boom right around the same time those pistons will??????
Dan
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
I agree that manufacturers want to sell theur product, so they may exaggerate a bit on some points for sure.
I would guess this motor would likely make around or a little over400 hp at the crank, so I don't know what the weak spot would be. The block, or pistons.
I do know that my SRT has eutectic pistons which are considered the weak point of our motors. I know quite a few people with zeroproblems with the pistons including those with 450whp+, but then again they could have designed a specific piston for our motors.
I'm tempted to try it out, but I'd rather not mess up my heads if a piston fails.
Both of you guys have a lot of real world experience with motors, so I'm not doubting your opinions at all.
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
I agree that manufacturers want to sell theur product, so they may exaggerate a bit on some points for sure.
I would guess this motor would likely make around or a little over400 hp at the crank, so I don't know what the weak spot would be. The block, or pistons.
I do know that my SRT has eutectic pistons which are considered the weak point of our motors. I know quite a few people with zeroproblems with the pistons including those with 450whp+, but then again they could have designed a specific piston for our motors.
I'm tempted to try it out, but I'd rather not mess up my heads if a piston fails.
Both of you guys have a lot of real world experience with motors, so I'm not doubting your opinions at all.
Ur SRT has a hyper piston made by a piston manufacturer for use in an OEM application. Way different than any off the shelf hyper piston.
I never said dont run it, just like to see you happy with your race blocked stroker motor!!!
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
Usually it's the opposite where the aftermarket is stronger than oem, or af least as good. Why do you think this isnt the case with eutectics?
Stroker motor is all in due time. I just gotta finish paying off my credit card then I can build it, but I dont want to have my mustang just collecting dust for all that time
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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Camara90
1%
Member # 134
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posted
Run the trick flows, mill them down add some compression, Sell the blower to help fund a custom cam and any good N/A bolt on's. Enjoy the 306 with hypers, and make some nice power!! I have thought about building a sick ass N/A small block lately. Nothing like the sound of a N/A small block over 7k rpms!!!
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92GT,stock short block,9:1 TFS 170's,perf rpm,custom cam,1 5/8 shorties,C4 trans.
std. 356hp, 350tq
11.85@111.9mph on motor.
Posts: 2351 | From: 707 | Registered: Jan 2001
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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I like boost way too much to go n/a now. Especially since I already have the blower. I know I'd be disappointed at the track too.
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
Today I called Federal Mogul to ask them their opinion on these specific pistons under boost. The tech guy I talked to said that 8psi with these pistons is a dangerous game and really pushing the limits of the pistons. He said if I had a very good/safe tune they would probably be ok, but he recommends against using these particular pistons under that much boost since any detonation at all at 8psi would likely grenade the pistons.
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2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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91blackonblack
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Member # 11591
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posted
Bro listen to turbo bro he knows what he is talking about.im not bashing you but u sound like the type im reading that ask's info an an everybody tells u to not do something an you do it anyways.i had hyper pistons an got the same advise frm a guy that knows his shit.an he said those damn things will melt the fuck down.now like i said im not bashing you bit get rid of the pistons or dont run boost at all an keep them.it wont work.dont do something twice.listen to what turbo is saying he knows all these setups.good luck with the build overall.quandoe
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91blackonblack is banned from this website for good. Vallejo ghetto drama does not belong on CAFords! Y'all need to find a different website. PLEASE! GTFO and take your ghetto shit with you.
ps- ENGLISH DOES MATTER. How foolish of CAFords, we wrote this on our registration page http://oi49.tinypic.com/2akjm7k.jpg but now realize it's useless because the intended audience CAN'T READ, TYPE OR UNDERSTAND ENGLISH!
His response:
"I just want to say i need some very important info.an the onl way was through a friend to help me find that info.but you guys are some fucking bitches that hide behind ur fucking computer all damn day.you fucking bastards racist piece of shyt.exspecally with that nazi symbol you guys think is koo.fuck you i hope i fuck ur sisters or wife.punk bitches.you guys are fucking haters.an i hope ur fucking website crashes to.god has the last word.an u guys let that piece of shyt 396 get away with murder.an letting everybody get banned because of his shyt talking.i hope he gets his to from somebody.one day he going to say the wrong thing to somebody.fuck u bitches.you mark ass.bye punks"
At least he's consistent with his views!
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91 ssp 306,h.c.i. +v2 blower,suspension
Duncan motorsFTMFTW/F.O.D. FTMFTW
Mr.Quandoe" swang shyt click"
Posts: 1608 | From: the blower yo bitch | Registered: Jan 2012
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 91blackonblack:
Bro listen to turbo bro he knows what he is talking about.im not bashing you but u sound like the type im reading that ask's info an an everybody tells u to not do something an you do it anyways.i had hyper pistons an got the same advise frm a guy that knows his shit.an he said those damn things will melt the fuck down.now like i said im not bashing you bit get rid of the pistons or dont run boost at all an keep them.it wont work.dont do something twice.listen to what turbo is saying he knows all these setups.good luck with the build overall.quandoe
As stated above, I never doubt Dan, or Lee's opinions. They have built a lot more motors than me, and I worked at a Mustang Shop for two years, so that's saying a lot. I am not the type of person to just get one or two opinions and make a decision based upon those couple of opinions without solid facts behind them. Eutectic pistons have a bad wrap for many reasons, but personally I don't know of one person that has had a eutectic fail on them.
I might have tried the build if I had a wideband and a tweecer or megasquirt to do a full and very detailed tune, but I don't, and don't want to spend the money on that stuff at the moment, so I am going to follow Dan, Lee, and the manufacturers advice and not run boost on these pistons. Just have to decide if I want to do an n/a build, or just sell the shortblock. The shortblock is still a nice setup, so it will do someone good for sure.
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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nitrous_bob
CAFords OG
Member # 77
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posted
ive been spraying for 10 years on hyper pistons....im just saying
but id do the eddies...already ported do it
why do you think you'll kiss a valve with 1.90 but the 2.02 are safer ? did i miss something ?
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5.0 OG since 1990
Posts: 1402 | From: st clair shores MI | Registered: Nov 2000
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
My edelbrocks use pedestal rockers and I have 1.72 ratio
My trick flows use stud mount and I have 1.6 rockers for those. Plus the trick flows have a different angle, so I'm equally worried about ptv with either head.
Would you run my setup untuned with only the factory computer doing the decision making? I have a pmas 95mm maf calibrated for 42lb injectors pmass also asked all of the details of my setup for the meter, so i dont know if that helps or not.
--------------------
2011 GT/CS 5.0 + Boost(Procharger)
90 Bronco 5.8 Lifted
05 SRT-4 24PSI E-85 at least 50 million hp
07 Harley VROD NRS Stage 1
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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91blackonblack
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Member # 11591
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posted
Well i would jus toss the pistions or sale them an get some nice rods an pistons if you do keep the block.weigh the piston if u can have it pull apart an weigh the rod then math it up an get the exact pistion an rod that weigh the same since the motor was balanced.my 02
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91blackonblack is banned from this website for good. Vallejo ghetto drama does not belong on CAFords! Y'all need to find a different website. PLEASE! GTFO and take your ghetto shit with you.
ps- ENGLISH DOES MATTER. How foolish of CAFords, we wrote this on our registration page http://oi49.tinypic.com/2akjm7k.jpg but now realize it's useless because the intended audience CAN'T READ, TYPE OR UNDERSTAND ENGLISH!
His response:
"I just want to say i need some very important info.an the onl way was through a friend to help me find that info.but you guys are some fucking bitches that hide behind ur fucking computer all damn day.you fucking bastards racist piece of shyt.exspecally with that nazi symbol you guys think is koo.fuck you i hope i fuck ur sisters or wife.punk bitches.you guys are fucking haters.an i hope ur fucking website crashes to.god has the last word.an u guys let that piece of shyt 396 get away with murder.an letting everybody get banned because of his shyt talking.i hope he gets his to from somebody.one day he going to say the wrong thing to somebody.fuck u bitches.you mark ass.bye punks"
At least he's consistent with his views!
-----------------------------
91 ssp 306,h.c.i. +v2 blower,suspension
Duncan motorsFTMFTW/F.O.D. FTMFTW
Mr.Quandoe" swang shyt click"
Posts: 1608 | From: the blower yo bitch | Registered: Jan 2012
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FivePTSlow
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Member # 7682
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 91blackonblack:
Well i would jus toss the pistions or sale them an get some nice rods an pistons if you do keep the block.weigh the piston if u can have it pull apart an weigh the rod then math it up an get the exact pistion an rod that weigh the same since the motor was balanced.my 02
If I were going to do that I might as well just use the block that's already in the car and rebuild it. If I wanted to just swap pistons for forged pistons then that's around $500, plus having it re-balanced, and installed. Might as well just sell this short block and start from scratch.
The reason I don't want to start from scratch is because I'm going to build a stroker motor in the future anyway, so no sense in building two new motors. This block seemed like a good deal, but is obviously turning out not to be.
Posts: 1857 | From: Sacramento | Registered: May 2007
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