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Topic: according to MM&FF, AFR-185's are...
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
 
worth 10 peak HP on a built 331 (10.x:1 CR) in unported fashion vs. the TFS TW head.
the article has a ton more details but the lowly TFS TW hung in there. Cam was a XE-274-HR.
wonder what the difference would be on a 9:1 302? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) remember two years ago the TFS TW on the same 302 shortblock beat the AFR-165 by a measly 3 HP. Probably much closer on a 302 is all I'm saying.
(see you on page 3)
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
"Yeah, but the cross section and the cam and the devine religous harmony of AFR's and custom cams result in bla bla" ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Another 'amazing' 10HP difference
If you're surprised in the outcome, please raise your hand.
"Tempting, but I'm going to hold out on this one"
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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sac 5.0
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Member # 2980
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shade-:
worth 10 peak HP on a built 331 (10.x:1 CR) in unported fashion vs. the TFS TW head.
the article has a ton more details but the lowly TFS TW hung in there. Cam was a XE-274-HR.
wonder what the difference would be on a 9:1 302? remember two years ago the TFS TW on the same 302 shortblock beat the AFR-165 by a measly 3 HP. Probably much closer on a 302 is all I'm saying.
(see you on page 3)
i think the cam was a xe264hr correct me if im wrong but the 185's looked pretty good on the 331 nice peak power
Posts: 1021 | From: sac | Registered: Jun 2003
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
nope 274-HR, and the "avg" HP advantage of the 185 vs. the TFS head was +8 HP.
food for thought. ![[Whoo Whooooo!]](graemlins/woowoo.gif)
[ October 07, 2003, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: shade- ]
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Did you happen to note how much AVG power the TW heads made compared to the AFR185's?
Or perhaps that the AFR's flowed in the middle of the entire pack of heads on the flow bench, but out-powered every last head?
Hahaha!
Just proves the point. Flow is only PART of the equation. Cross-section is also very important.
Oh, but you don't have to take my word for it. I believe there is a local example nearly ready to out-power every other stock shortblock H/C/I motor around....without even using a 2.02 valve head.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
did you misread the letters "HP" for flow? see above.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Nick
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Member # 2244
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posted
Is 10hp really worth almost $300? To me it isn't. I'm sorry, but TFS TWs offer the most performance gain per dollar of most all of the assembled heads on the market. Just my opinion though, so don't take it as the law of the land. (as I'm sure you wouldn't)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Fast, Cheap or Reliable. Pick two and live with it.
Posts: 1215 | From: The Delta | Registered: Dec 2002
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166 Merlo
FELONY
MOTORSPORTS
Member # 1549
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posted
Im getting trick flows!
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'89 - Boss Coupe
'70 - Drop Cutthang
'68 - Cougnut
'87 - 0166, Its real
Posts: 3954 | From: Thebay | Registered: Jul 2002
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
don't forget the application, on a 10.6:1 331 everything else being the same,
Peak AF
AFR-185 277/200
TFS-TW 244/182
AVG AF
AFR-185 329.95
TFS-TW 305.88
Peak HP
AFR-185 448
TFS TW 438
Peak TQ
AFR-185 445
TFS TW 443
AVG HP/AVG TQ
AFR-185 343/417.9
TFS TW 335/408.2
I wonder what group 3 will tell us? (with the edel vic sr's, TFS Hi-ports, AFR 205/225 (?) etc.) great info.
"best airflow" data broke down like this:
#1 FRZ304 (276/213, 340.29 avg)
#2 BrodixM2 (277/222, 333.57 avg)
#3 Can 192 (283/203, 333.52 avg)
#4 AFR-185 (277/200, 329.95 avg)
insert giant break in the graph
#5 TFS-TW (248/182, 305.88 avg)
#6 perf-rpm (251/186, 304.76 avg)
with 9 heads tested, and being in a virtual 3-way 2 for second place, I don't know if the AFR qualifies as "middle of the pack" statistically for airflow. Looks like the top 90% if we were to put a standard deviation on the data
Avg HP broke down like this:
#1 AFR-185 343
#2 Can-192 338
#3 FR-Z304 338
#4 Bro-M2 337
#5 TFS-TW 335
#6 perf-rpm 332
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another way of looking at the HP data is this, less than 3% seperates the top 6 heads, most dyno's relative margin of error is approximately the same ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
"yeah, there's only one way to go fast"
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
MM&FF should have grown a pair and put the AFR165's against the TFS TW's, but then again everyone knows what the result will be, so why bother. Lets not forget the AFR's have a compression advantage due to a smaller combustion chamber. At the end, it it always seems to come down to AT MOST 10-20cfm, 10-20 HP, and 1-2 mph.
[ October 08, 2003, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
this test the put the CR at 10.6 for both setups, but did acknowledge that the CC of the TFS was 61cc vs 60cc for the AFR-185, sounds like a push to me.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
Either way, the whole debate is nickle and dimes. Lets debate the cobra intake vs the GT40 intake while we're at it. This use to be a hot topic for years for those that remember Eventually the score was settled... the extra money you pay for the GT40 is for the extra cool looks, not the performance.
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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Yellow94GT
Mr. 60 FT
Member # 431
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Either way, the whole debate is nickle and dimes. Lets debate the cobra intake vs the GT40 intake while we're at it. This use to be a hot topic for years for those that remember Eventually the score was settled... the extra money you pay for the GT40 is for the extra cool looks, not the performance.
Cobra's look better anyway ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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AED
1994 GT Bucket that will likely never run
1999 SLOLEEN Twin Turbo Coyote
2008 F250 580 RWHP 1129 RWTQ
Posts: 5990 | From: Cameron Park, Ca | Registered: Sep 2001
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
It's evident you guys don't know what you're looking at when reading that data.
These posts are pointless.
Whatever happened with that 'dyno off' we heard about a while back??? A bunch of stock shortblock H/C/I combos heading to the same dyno on the same day to see which complete combos were pumping out more power then others.... I'd still like to see this happen. Hell, I'll even enter a car....just to see how it stacks up to the local TW motors.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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JohnB
Tech Moderator
Member # 969
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posted
I agree. We, as hobbyists, need to take this upon ourselves and show some "real world" results.
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1965 Shelby Cobra
1993 Cobra
2012 F150 Raptor
2020 GT500
Posts: 6523 | From: Orlando FL/Redding CA | Registered: Mar 2002
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
It's evident you guys don't know what you're looking at when reading that data.
These posts are pointless.
How arrogant, and useless a post this is. If you have a criticism that's what this place is for--- not to have the attitude that yours is the only valid perspective on this data.
Obviously the dyno data from Jim , Jon, and myself must be inaccurate.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shade-:
Obviously the dyno data from Jim , Jon, and myself must be inaccurate.
How about all the cars on the same dyno and on the same day That will settle that...
Put up or shut up time!
[ October 08, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: AaronC ]
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
Put up or shut up time!
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
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Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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jmcclesk
Moderator
Member # 1355
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posted
Wow this shit is getting old. 93 pony how about a heads up race between you and shade. So we are back to dyno racing??? I thought who ever got to the other end first was the winner but what do i know.
[ October 08, 2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: jmcclesk ]
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Ford trained ASE master tech.
Posts: 4024 | From: marrysville | Registered: May 2002
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
I'll run Shadetree once my car is up, running, & tuned. I believe he called me out months ago, but we haven't yet lined up together.
Unless you mean in Heather's car....but what point would that serve. Lowly Edelbrock Performer headed full weight GT VS TW headed stripped down Coupe. Although, I have no doubt her motor will pump out just as much if not more power then Shadetree's motor on the same dyno on the same day. & that's without an electric fan, electric water pump, longtubes, shortbelt, etc, etc.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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jmcclesk
Moderator
Member # 1355
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posted
you win, your car's are the fastest and the rest of us know nothing and yes i ment 91 pony's car
[ October 08, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: jmcclesk ]
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Ford trained ASE master tech.
Posts: 4024 | From: marrysville | Registered: May 2002
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
I'll dyno again when I install underdrives, I don't know what that has to do with AFR-185 vs TFS TW on a certain 10.6:1 331 but so be it.
Otherwise see you at the track. yes I'm butt-hurt now.
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
I still feel robed out of a mud wrestling match? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
So we're going to get a bunch of stock bottem end cars together with the same cam/intake/bolt-ons and swap heads of same size chambers to compare dyno numbers to see who makes 5-10 HP more?
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
Bottom line is each cylinder head will want different parts and cam to reach their potential. The intake might fit one port better yet be too big on another causing turbulence. One might thrive on one cam yet another won't, etc etc. Why not bring what ya got and let's see how the dust settles. Funny how it doesn't seem like there's any interest with all the same people there on the same day. Why is this? I believe Sawson is the one who first proposed this idea yet he clowns it now. I'm also down for a track shootout. We'll all hit the scales together for a weigh in and then run. I say we do both (dyno shootout and track shootout)... Might as well gather as many details for the locals and give em something to learn from... Show them what parts make what HP and run what times at X weight. I'm tired of all the debating. Bring what ya got and prove your point. I'm prepared to do that. Is anyone else?
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
I'm tired of these AFR/Custom cam bashing sessions a few of you seem to enjoy. It's for this simple reason I built 91PONY's new combo. No AFR heads, no TW heads, just a pair of Performers.....the older lower flowing versions at that. No custom cam....just an OTS Comp cam...
320RWHP is all it takes to get the average weight mustang with gears & traction to click off an 11 second 1/4 mile. I'm just showing that it can be done with even the lowest performing Aluminum heads, the right supporting parts, installed the correct way. (there is a LOT to the install that most neglect)
My point is simple. Match the parts correctly & build the combo correctly & you will make enough power to go 11's. No mater what head you choose.
Aaron, you know Heather & I are down to line her car up with whatever stock shortblock H/C/I combo is out there. Once tuned that is.
Lets do this. Dyno/track shootout.
Prove to everybody what we've all been preaching for the last 12+ months.
I propose we use the Dyno Fasterdamnit uses in Suisun City. It's a dynojet 248 & just about in the middle of the Sac & Bay area guys.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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