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Author
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Topic: Subframe Connectors
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wilit
Mustang Messiah
Member # 3367
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posted
 
 
I've got an '03 GT 'Vert and the chassis rigidity leaves something to be desired. I was looking at getting the Kenny Brown Matrix subs, but someone on the RRAX mailing list I'm on mentioned the "X" brace from Evolution Motorsports http://evolutionmsport.com It looks like it would provide more torsional support than the Matrix subs. Has anyone had any experience with the Evolution stuff?
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"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 4793 | From: 37.78514° North 122.40100° West | Registered: Oct 2003
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
Why not get some Maximum Motorsport subs, and a strut tower brace?....
The MM subs attach to the seat bolts and re-inforce the floor pan where the seats attach...If you want a little more just weld a "jacking rail" plate to the pinch welds on the floor pan too...
The X brace looks like it gets in the way more than anything....
If you wanna get serious, what about a 6 point roll bar? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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wilit
Mustang Messiah
Member # 3367
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posted
I don't know if you've ever driven a 'vert, but the thing feels like it's going to shake apart sometimes. I'm looking for alternatives for simple sub frame connectors. I need to strengthen the car up as much as possible. I'm still trying to talk the girlfriend into the 6-point, but there's no guarantee.
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"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 4793 | From: 37.78514° North 122.40100° West | Registered: Oct 2003
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jcm3man
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Member # 3834
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilit:
I don't know if you've ever driven a 'vert, but the thing feels like it's going to shake apart sometimes. I'm looking for alternatives for simple sub frame connectors. I need to strengthen the car up as much as possible. I'm still trying to talk the girlfriend into the 6-point, but there's no guarantee.
If you're interested I can help... I own a shop in French Camp, south of Stockton, If you truly want to make your car rigid... I deal with Griggs Racing (www.griggsracing.com) components and I would install sub frame connectors, and an in-floor sub frame, and seriously consider at least a 4 point roll bar. I would also recommend a few drive train improvements, like replacing all the mounts: ie. transmission, engine.
I used to own a 92 convertible and I wanted the same result (rigidity). If you need other references... contact John Griggs (personal friend) and he has owned 4 different convertibles 90, 92, 94 (cobra), 98 (cobra). He has mastered the art of making a convertible solid. I have followed his example ever since. I'm sure if you were interested... he would give you a ride in his burgundy convertible.
John Morris
ALTEREDSPEED
john@alteredspeed.com
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WWW.ALTEREDSPEED.COM
(209)234-7890
john@alteredspeed.com
Diablosport, Dyno tuning, Performance Parts, etc.
Posts: 230 | From: Tracy | Registered: Nov 2003
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Beasty5.0
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Member # 2935
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posted
Originally posted by jcm3man:
quote:
I deal with Griggs Racing
Hey John on this board Griggs Racing is full of shit, they keep fucking up on a fellow mustang members car, so when you mention them this is what goes through our minds ![[BS flag]](graemlins/bs_flag.gif)
[ January 16, 2004, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Beasty5.0 ]
Posts: 1055 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Jun 2003
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Joel Villarreal
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Member # 3975
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posted
Subframes can only handle so much load on the weak floor pan of our Mustangs. You can give your car the beefi-est Subs but it's only going to warp the pan in the log run. If you get a 4-point cage, that's only goin to tighten up the rear end or Front end, pending on what kind of 4 point you get. Unfortunitally I think, You need a minimum of a 6-point cage to truely tie-in all your points front and rear. 6-point cage, with the Subs triangulates all your points on the stucturally weak Verts. Hard-tops you can get away with just subs.
Maier Racing has alot a literature on all this. Go to his Website and have a look see or Give him a call, he's done many verts sub installs and cage installs.
Oh, try to convince your girl to let you do the mod Hehehe..
Joel
[ January 16, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Joel Villarreal ]
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68 Fastback, 302, headers, RPM intake and a holley, T-5, Detroit Locker. Many Maier Racing Suspension and Fiberglass
98 Z28 M6. kinda stock
Posts: 21 | From: San Lorenzo | Registered: Jan 2004
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ray95
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Member # 752
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posted
I would NEVER EVER buy another Griggs product after what they've put Matt through with his car. I have MM's full subs and they feel great! Global West subs are one of the better subframe connectors out. Part # 929-C should work for your car.
Posts: 895 | From: The Bay Area | Registered: Jan 2002
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jcm3man
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Member # 3834
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posted
Here's what my opinion is on this whole subject regarding Matt's situation...
I do appreciate the issue with Matt's car and I understand the concern's everyone has with the service quality. I agree that Matt's situation should have been handled differently and he should have received a quality product and service for his hard earned money.
However, The issue with the service quality is independant of what my shop or other shops do and our quality of work.
Also it is not my fight to defend or attack Griggs for the "Matt" issue. I am not brand loyal by any means or brand blind and I will be offering alternative to Griggs components, but I will stand by the performance of Griggs components because I have seen and tried just about every setup out there... and I know some of you don't agree, but Griggs components work very well.
I think the issue is that no one is looking beyond the customer treatment issue when Griggs is mentioned. The components were not the issue it was the customer service quality and quality of engine building... which I've said in a previous post that the engine building is definitely an area Griggs may need to improve.
I will not speak on the quality of components that went in to Matt's engine because I don't know what the engine components were... but I have seen many people in the past want to build a high horsepower motor on a budget and that is an oxymoron... If anyone ever asks me... there is no such thing as a cheap "high horsepower quality motor".
Again... that is not the focus here...
I and others that install Griggs are simply seperate shops all together and I have a different customer service perspective and my turn around time will NEVER!!! be a Matt situation even if I eat the cost... But again the one thing that needs to be understood is that my creed is "use what works"... and Griggs works!
I am not down playing any other companies... ie. Maximum Motorsports, UPR, Hotckis, Steeda... etc..
I think each manufacturer makes specific components that are excellent, but I do have the opinion that Griggs "systems" work better than any other for road racing and even specific high end street applications.
Understand that I will not be trying to sell someone a complete Griggs system if there car is a daily driver, but if you are looking to road race or autocross... I will suggest Griggs...
And conversly... if someone was to ask for a suspension system for a drag car... I would suggest UPR or Wolfe Race Craft among other quality options!
Road racing and autocross geometric principals directly relate to chassis stiffening... even on the street... you must have a rigid chassis to road race or autocross and because of my "creed" until someone else comes in to the road racing circuit and dominates like Griggs has... I would then consider this new manufacturer as my product of choice because it would be following my creed of "use what works"...!!!
I need to say that these opinions are not because I get any kind of kick back from Griggs or for any other selfish reasons...
I simply want to see those that want to go fast and win races... do exactly that...!!! Right now I see Griggs components right at the top of the road racing industry... and I will stick to the track numbers in my decisions, right now Griggs runs some of the fastest lap times and that is what wins races... And like I said I want my customers to be satisfied with performance and quality of product first because that is what counts.
In reference to the roll bar issue... I also agree that a six point bar is better than a four point bar, and this is why i said "at least a four point bar".
The other issue is that this car is a convertible and setting up a convertible chassis is different from setting up a coupe or hatchback... you have a "roll center" or "chassis twist" on a convertible that is right in front of the rear quarter panels... as opposed to the coupe and hatchback that are the rear of the front fenders around the firewall... taking this in to consideration the principal of chassis stiffening is slightly skewed on a convertible as opposed to a car with a roof. With out a B-pillar you lack the rotational torsion rigidity of a car with B-pillars which creates the need for boxing the car's sub-structure together. A roll bar is definitely a key to this equation, but this needs to be complimented by use of sub frame connectors and an in-floor subframe kit to completely box the cars frame.
If you read the original post by "wilit" there seems be asthetics to consider as well and this is why I stated "at least a 4 point roll bar"... if this concern can be delt with and overcome... a 6 point roll bar would be the correct choice.
The final issue to consider is budget... none of the options suggested will mean anything if they are beyond "wilit's" price range.
The bottom line for wilit's convertible is we all agree that subs and a roll bar would be the best way to go and how he gets there is ultimately up to him.
Now I'm sure there are several people with different opinions than mine, but remeber that I am interested in what is going to make people happy and usually performance and success makes speed junkies like us happy and this is my focus.
John Morris
ALTEREDSPEED
use what works!!!
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WWW.ALTEREDSPEED.COM
(209)234-7890
john@alteredspeed.com
Diablosport, Dyno tuning, Performance Parts, etc.
Posts: 230 | From: Tracy | Registered: Nov 2003
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GOT 50
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Member # 1960
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posted
If you want to stiffen up your chassis i strobly recomend Maximum Motorsports 6 point weld in roll bar with swing out door bars. You can take out the whole roll bar if wanted only 6 plates are actually welded into the car. When just the back half of the roll bar is in the front end feals pretty flimsy. When ther door bars are put in feels like no chasis flex at all
Just Me Eric
Posts: 2139 | From: SF/DALY CITY/MILLBRAE | Registered: Oct 2002
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilit:
I don't know if you've ever driven a 'vert, but the thing feels like it's going to shake apart sometimes.
No I've never driven a vert. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ..lol...
I've installed MM subs on Brian's (TRY2PAZ) '99 Saleen 'vert as well as my own 94 Coupe...Even with subframe connectors Brian's Saleen is not that stiff, but the subframes made BIG improvements....
Like I said before, If you wanna get serious, what about a 6 point?...The reason I asked that is becuase a lot of vert owners dont like the look of a 6 point bar when the top is down...My advise is to kiss your girlfriends ass and get a six point.... ...Like other people have suggested you're gonna need a 6 point to really help a vert...
Good luck!
Rob
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by jcm3man:
Here's what my opinion is on this whole subject regarding Matt's situation...
I think the issue is that no one is looking beyond the customer treatment issue when Griggs is mentioned. The components were not the issue it was the customer service quality and quality of engine building... which I've said in a previous post that the engine building is definitely an area Griggs may need to improve.
John, I agree with you 100%...I've ridden in a couple of GR40 Mustangs and was very impressed with how they felt...HOWEVER, from a buyers point of view, customer service is a HUGE factor when it comes to buying parts....The reason I'm very partial to MM is because of their great customer service...I dont have that much money to modify cars anymore...Shit, I dont even own a Mustang anymore, but if I were to buy any Griggs products I would be worried all the time about parts breaking...Not because their parts break, but how I would be delt with after spending my hard erned money on their parts...My point being that; yeah, its great to have the best suspension parts on your car, but at a price of waiting for years and years and still not getting what you want?...Well, I think I'll stick to what I know works...Maximum Motorsports... ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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jcm3man
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Member # 3834
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Black94 5.0:
quote:
Originally posted by jcm3man:
Here's what my opinion is on this whole subject regarding Matt's situation...
I think the issue is that no one is looking beyond the customer treatment issue when Griggs is mentioned. The components were not the issue it was the customer service quality and quality of engine building... which I've said in a previous post that the engine building is definitely an area Griggs may need to improve.
John, I agree with you 100%...I've ridden in a couple of GR40 Mustangs and was very impressed with how they felt...HOWEVER, from a buyers point of view, customer service is a HUGE factor when it comes to buying parts....The reason I'm very partial to MM is because of their great customer service...I dont have that much money to modify cars anymore...Shit, I dont even own a Mustang anymore, but if I were to buy any Griggs products I would be worried all the time about parts breaking...Not because their parts break, but how I would be delt with after spending my hard erned money on their parts...My point being that; yeah, its great to have the best suspension parts on your car, but at a price of waiting for years and years and still not getting what you want?...Well, I think I'll stick to what I know works...Maximum Motorsports...
I completely understand... customer service is a big issue and I agree with this perspective.
Remember that I said the other shops out (Apex Motorsport, ALTEREDSPEED, etc...) should not be at fault for the customer service...
All I was trying to say was don't sell yourself short on performance because of customer service. You can go to other shops like myself and Apex Motorsports and have the Griggs or Maximum components installed and get great customer service. Not to mention if we (other shops) are carrying these parts you should not have to worry about dealing with Griggs directly!
Black94 5.0,
Thanks for the comment... very well thought out.
Fools and there money part quickly... You're no fool!
John
ALTEREDSPEED
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WWW.ALTEREDSPEED.COM
(209)234-7890
john@alteredspeed.com
Diablosport, Dyno tuning, Performance Parts, etc.
Posts: 230 | From: Tracy | Registered: Nov 2003
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DropTopFox
drama
Member # 1689
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posted
I say just get yourself I set of weld in sub frames and be done with it, don't get those x things, that will make working on the car a pain in the ass, then get a strut tower brace to stiffen up some more, and if you still want more go with the roll bar
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Go out and do something for yourself today everyone, quit depending on others
-Me
http://www.CaliforniaFords.com/cgi-bin/album.pl?album=00001689
Posts: 4003 | From: San Bruno | Registered: Aug 2002
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bobh
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Member # 1495
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posted
Some of the parts may be a bit of overkill for a street driven car IMO.
I have Global West welded in subs and their strut tower brace on my Fox vert. It's stiff as hell.
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97 Cobra, 87 GT vert, 99 SHO
Auto Performance Pages
Posts: 59 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jul 2002
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EvolutionMotorsport
New Member
Member # 4035
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posted
I have been following this thread and have seen it mentioned a few times that the X of our X-Brace is more trouble than its worth since it will get in the way.
There seems to be some confusion over how the "X" is mounted. The X sits between the exhaust and the floorpans, so I am not quite sure what it will interfere with????
Thanks.....Mike
[ January 23, 2004, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: EvolutionMotorsport ]
Posts: 3 | From: DE-MI-PA | Registered: Jan 2004
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
Mike, how does the X clear 3" exhaust combos?...What about the larger diameter FRPP aluminum driveshafts?....
If you have any pics it might help clear up any unfamailiar questions with have on the "X-brace"...
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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EvolutionMotorsport
New Member
Member # 4035
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posted
You can check out our instructions for an idea of what the X Brace looks like installed:
http://www.evolutionmsport.com/xbrace-web.pdf
Specifically pages 9 and 11.
As for 3" exhaust, it varies. We have had the "X" Brace installed on cars with a variety of exhaust systems. One or two needed a minor tweak. From a stock exhaust standpoint, everything is fine. As for the aluminum driveshaft, that should not be a problem. I can get an exact measurement on the driveshaft loop if you would like.
Thanks...Mike
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Evolution Motorsport
www.evolutionmsport.com
Posts: 3 | From: DE-MI-PA | Registered: Jan 2004
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EvolutionMotorsport
New Member
Member # 4035
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posted
The 3-Link is coming along nicely. Over the past month or so we have made some changes to the design. Specifically the center link. We should have the 3-Link on the cars we sponsor within the month. It should be available to the public within 2 months.
Thanks...Mike
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Evolution Motorsport
www.evolutionmsport.com
Posts: 3 | From: DE-MI-PA | Registered: Jan 2004
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mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052
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posted
The best set up I have seen period is the inner and outer sub frames that Global West sells. They are a chore to install but worth the effort in my opinion. My second choice would be Griggs Racing's sub frames along with Griggs Racing's frame kit. Either choice makes for one solid car. Hope this helps.
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R.I.P. Charlie Bruno Dec 2001
Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004
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icon
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Member # 949
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posted
slice your floor open and buy some 2x3 box tubing and weld them in you welld your front frame to your rear frame and your floor pan toy the box tubing its the best way i can do you it for $500. bucks
650-344-3272
chris
Posts: 202 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Chance
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Member # 3243
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posted
I recommend Griggs Full frame kit.
If you are only doing lower sub-frames, it is a toss-up between Griggs and Maximum. The Griggs has a little bit better clearance. Evolution weld in looks good, but for the same amount you could have a Griggs full frame.
You could do the 3"x2" weld in thing yourself. That will work, but for $299 you get all of the metal bent to shape, and ready to weld in from Grigss, upper and lower.
I road-race, open track, and drive my car on the street. I have riden in MM equipt and others(evolution excluded), nothing compares to the Griggs-full frame.
As for everyone not liking Griggs for the "Matt" reason. I don't know what that is all about. Everyone at Griggs has been nothing but helpful and generous when I deal with them. I could list time after time when Griggs went out of their way to help myself and other racers.
If you ar hell bent against Griggs, Maximum does make a good product. Check out Livermoreperformance.com and Apexmotorsports.com they have Maximum stuff.
If you are looking for an installer, there are only two places that I trust to work on my car. Griggs and Apex Motorsports.
I have no experience with ALTEREDSPEED, but I know Griggs only allows top notch shops install their stuff.
Chance
Posts: 22 | From: CA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Member # 949
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posted
ok you said alot im not insulting your intelligence at all here but how is it that a dinky round tube or 2x2 box tube under the floor pan stronger than a 2x3 tieing the floor and the frame together
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i have a dual frame rail chromoly tube chassis mustang and you dont :)
i do chassis work anything for subframe con's to full chassis cars
Posts: 202 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Chance
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Member # 3243
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posted
The 2"x2" tubing is welded inside of the front sub frame, and to the floor, the entire way back to the rear bulkhead (under the rear seat). There are plates that you weld on to further strengthen the bulkhead, and triangulate the corners.
The lower sub-frames are welded to the front sub-frame, now sandwiching the front sub-frame between the upper and lower. This goes back to the rear sub-frame and is welded on bottom. You now have a triangle the third side is made up of the bulkhead and rear sub-frames.
Now you weld a piece under the seat where the top sub frame sticks below the floorboard to the lower sub-frame, adding more stiffness.
If you are doing the torque-arm you weld the bar between the two lower sub-frames.
I am not very articulate, so if I make no sense here, you can check out the Directions on Grigg's web site.
When you refer to the 3"x2", I assume you where talking about the "Mathis, Mustang Performance Handbook 2" design. I may have been wrong in that assumption, but that is the only 3"x2" design I have seen. If you are referring to this design, yes it works, and quite well.
If you have some steel lying around, by all means do it yourself. I would recommend you pick up one of the Mathis books. He gives dimensions and all around good advice on this stuff.
For me personally, having everything pre-bent, torque arm ready, and ready to weld it was worth the $299.
Posts: 22 | From: CA | Registered: Sep 2003
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