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Author
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Topic: 4.6 head, intake, cam swap
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98saleen
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Member # 7459
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posted
 
 
hey i have a 98gt with all the basic bolt ons and i now want to do a head, intake, cam swap. i have heard nothing but bad news about patriot heads. has anyone used bigboyracing to do their work? i think im gona go with comp cams xtreme series cams and the trick flow intake when it comes out in april.....after the h/c/i swap im gona get a supercharger (probably in a year or so after i pay for the h/c/i) please flood me with info
Posts: 170 | From: pittsburg, ca | Registered: Feb 2007
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BOTIH8R
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Member # 7295
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posted
just get some stock pi heads have them reworked then buy the cams.the typhoon manifold is pretty good i put one on one of my buddies car its nice for the price.
Posts: 1143 | From: sacramento | Registered: Dec 2006
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RED@7kVERT *8850GT*
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Member # 5909
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posted
just to keep it cost effecient...why dont you go with the professional product lower man., plenum, & 75mm TB combo for $650...??
and check out the new issue of summit...the TFS is $800.........
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02 Z06-11.0 @ 132 1.9 60'
_ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _
Sold:05 CTS-V-13.1@114
Sold:01 Cobra Vert-12.0@119
Posts: 2432 | From: -916- | Registered: Aug 2005
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98saleen
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Member # 7459
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posted
did your friend have his pi heads worked? stock cams and typhoon intake? how did it run? any numbers?
Posts: 170 | From: pittsburg, ca | Registered: Feb 2007
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92stangLX
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Member # 3252
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posted
If you do a PI head swap it is gonna raise the compression of your motor. This would not be good if you decide to go with a blower.
How much power are you lookin' to make?
Posts: 5302 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Sep 2003
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BOTIH8R
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Member # 7295
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by vhillsmtz:
did your friend have his pi heads worked? stock cams and typhoon intake? how did it run? any numbers?
he had stock heads and cams but it definitely woke the car up
Posts: 1143 | From: sacramento | Registered: Dec 2006
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98saleen
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Member # 7459
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posted
i am looking to get a blower later. i want some good power so i can be deep into 13s so when i get a blower i will dip 12s
Posts: 170 | From: pittsburg, ca | Registered: Feb 2007
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BOTIH8R
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Member # 7295
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posted
you can get into 12's with intake,t.b,elbow,long tubes/exhaust,3.73's,tune,slicks and skinnies.its been done
Posts: 1143 | From: sacramento | Registered: Dec 2006
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98saleen
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Member # 7459
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posted
i was speaking with tom at dugan racing and he recommended that i dont open up my modular motor, just keep the stock heads without getting ported patriots or whatever. he said he has seen a lot of problems. he recommends all the bolt ons and a vortech........
oh also has anyone tried the livornois intake kit that adapts a pi intake to non pi motor
Posts: 170 | From: pittsburg, ca | Registered: Feb 2007
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
PI heads on a non-PI shortblock will give you 11:1 compression....definately NOT good for a blower setup on pump gas. Although GREAT for N/A & N2O power.
I've used Patriot heads on dozens of motors. They had minor problems in the begining (years ago) but those have been worked out. Any issues these days is typically due to installation error. Like not notching the pistons. You must notch the non-PI pistons when using PI heads with larger valves. With stock cams they come close, with aftermarket cams they will hit & start breaking valves & guides.
You can get custom (smogable) cams from HiTechmotorsports for the same price as OTS 2V comp cams. They'll idle better, make more midrange, plenty of top end & be easier to tune.
Expect 295-310RWHP from a mild set of cams, Patriot stage 2 heads (stage 3's don't make as much) & a stock PI intake manifold on pump gas.
I wouldn't waste my money on an aftermarket manifold at this point. Haven't seen good results with the typhoon or P51. Poor quality control....they need to be 'worked' in order to make more power. & even then the gains are nothing what the magazines claim. Then because they are aluminum the gains are offset by heat-soak which the plastic stocker doesn't get nearly as much of.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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BOTIH8R
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Member # 7295
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posted
the runners on the typhoon are shorter not by much but they are.that helps somewhat up top
Posts: 1143 | From: sacramento | Registered: Dec 2006
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90RanGer
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Member # 2906
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posted
I did the pi swap on my car, I have ported pi heads,with vt stage 1 cams, going kenne bell blower now. N/A is a waste of money on the 2v's IMO. Hell, Shaun is the one that tuned my car. I wanted to cry after it made the numbers it did, I changed the head gasket and put in under drive pulleys and it was alot better, but still. There is one important thing on the modualar engine when it comes to cams. If you do not degree the cams you will not be making as much power as you could be, the cam gears have enough slop in them from the factory that your banks left and right can be off by a couple degrees and diminishing ur power gains. So if you do spend all the money N/A pull the motor, degree those cams properly and get it all done right.
Was it worth all the money spent, fuck no. I coulda put all that money towards a blower and be makin a good amount of satisfying power by now. Its real tight when you dump all that money into a ur engine, and your buddies bone stock STI works ur ass, HAHA, UGHHH. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Dont waste your time on the aftermarket manifolds, I had the bullitt intake manifold on mine. Looked great, not really worth it N/A, supercharger definitely yes. It adds a shit ton of weight, talking about 30lbs more the pi intake manifold itself. Like Shaun said, the heat soak on aluminum sucks. Stick with the PI manifold, its proven itself over time that there isnt really anything worth shelling money out for.
We'll see about that trickflow intake, I call bs on their 20hp improvement on a stock gt claims. If Ford couldnt get barely any n/a out of the bullitt and the trickflow is a ripoff of the bullitt but without a twin blade t/b I dont see how its possible.
The typhoon is also a piece of junk from all the reading I did on it while back.
Compression will be more like 10.5:1 with pi heads on npi bottom end.
If I started over, I would do one of the two things. I would go on ebay for a couple weeks or a month or two. I would watch a few vortech auctions. I have seen many many used vortech 4.6 gt kits go for sale on there for 1500-1800 with most everything you need. With all the bolt ons to help the blower you can make 300rwhp with all the junk npi stuff. If you want more power, then I would swap to stock PI cams and get the pi intake manifold.
Option two which is the best option IMO, I would just go buy a used 99-04 gt engine and swap that in. You can get one for the same price as buying used heads/cams and pi intake, I kid you not, look around. You will have the 99-04 compression, then you go buy a used vortech kit or even go get a vortech tuner kit and get the injectors and lightning maf and walbro pump and you got plenty of power waiting for you. You can then make 370-390 reliable rwhp on the stock block with a good tune and have a fun car.
[ February 20, 2007, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: 90RanGer ]
Posts: 142 | From: Santa Cruz, CA | Registered: Jun 2003
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 90RanGer:
I did the pi swap on my car, I have ported pi heads,with vt stage 1 cams, going kenne bell blower now. N/A is a waste of money on the 2v's IMO. Hell, Shaun is the one that tuned my car. I wanted to cry after it made the numbers it did, I changed the head gasket and put in under drive pulleys and it was alot better, but still. There is one important thing on the modualar engine when it comes to cams. If you do not degree the cams you will not be making as much power as you could be, the cam gears have enough slop in them from the factory that your banks left and right can be off by a couple degrees and diminishing ur power gains. So if you do spend all the money N/A pull the motor, degree those cams properly and get it all done right.
Was it worth all the money spent, fuck no. I coulda put all that money towards a blower and be makin a good amount of satisfying power by now. Its real tight when you dump all that money into a ur engine, and your buddies bone stock STI works ur ass, HAHA, UGHHH.
Dont waste your time on the aftermarket manifolds, I had the bullitt intake manifold on mine. Looked great, not really worth it N/A, supercharger definitely yes. It adds a shit ton of weight, talking about 30lbs more the pi intake manifold itself. Like Shaun said, the heat soak on aluminum sucks. Stick with the PI manifold, its proven itself over time that there isnt really anything worth shelling money out for.
We'll see about that trickflow intake, I call bs on their 20hp improvement on a stock gt claims. If Ford couldnt get barely any n/a out of the bullitt and the trickflow is a ripoff of the bullitt but without a twin blade t/b I dont see how its possible.
The typhoon is also a piece of junk from all the reading I did on it while back.
Compression will be more like 10.5:1 with pi heads on npi bottom end.
If I started over, I would do one of the two things. I would go on ebay for a couple weeks or a month or two. I would watch a few vortech auctions. I have seen many many used vortech 4.6 gt kits go for sale on there for 1500-1800 with most everything you need. With all the bolt ons to help the blower you can make 300rwhp with all the junk npi stuff. If you want more power, then I would swap to stock PI cams and get the pi intake manifold.
Option two which is the best option IMO, I would just go buy a used 99-04 gt engine and swap that in. You can get one for the same price as buying used heads/cams and pi intake, I kid you not, look around. You will have the 99-04 compression, then you go buy a used vortech kit or even go get a vortech tuner kit and get the injectors and lightning maf and walbro pump and you got plenty of power waiting for you. You can then make 370-390 reliable rwhp on the stock block with a good tune and have a fun car.
Good points!
Nothin' like experience. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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98saleen
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Member # 7459
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posted
how about the pi intake (with livornois adapter kit) and aftermarket cams in stock npi heads? hyland said he has made 300 flywheel hp with this setup.....any experiences? i just want a good running motor until i get a vortech in the next year.
Posts: 170 | From: pittsburg, ca | Registered: Feb 2007
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BOTIH8R
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Member # 7295
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 90RanGer:
I did the pi swap on my car, I have ported pi heads,with vt stage 1 cams, going kenne bell blower now. N/A is a waste of money on the 2v's IMO. Hell, Shaun is the one that tuned my car. I wanted to cry after it made the numbers it did, I changed the head gasket and put in under drive pulleys and it was alot better, but still. There is one important thing on the modualar engine when it comes to cams. If you do not degree the cams you will not be making as much power as you could be, the cam gears have enough slop in them from the factory that your banks left and right can be off by a couple degrees and diminishing ur power gains. So if you do spend all the money N/A pull the motor, degree those cams properly and get it all done right.
funny you should say that.what i am about to say is regarding 99+ 4 valve motors,just going on the cam timing thing.sorry.kenne bell now says that you need to degree your cams if you want to see the advertised numbers they claim.they almost got sued because of that and after further testing and inspection found that the factory did not assemble each motor identically.(hmmm i wonder if it is because they are hand built.whats funny is that most of these claims are on 99-01 cobras and not on the mach's.the mach's motor werent hand built)ford racing now offers a degree-ing kit,and fidanza offers aftermarket gears.yes i would have to agree that if you doing anything power related on mod motors it is especially important to degree those mofo's.
i wonder what kind of gains you might be able to see if any just by dialing stock cams. ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
Posts: 1143 | From: sacramento | Registered: Dec 2006
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