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Author
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Topic: Degreed my cam, how do these results sound?
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166 Merlo
FELONY
MOTORSPORTS
Member # 1549
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posted
 
 
TFS stage 1 cam card reads:
Intake:
opens 3* BTCD
closes 38* ABDC
Max lift: 108* ATDC
Now I installed the cam retarded 4* and got these results when I degree'd it:
Intake:
opens 3* ATCD
closes 38*ABDC
Max lift: 112* ATDC (ICL area of the degree wheel)
Does this sound correct? Is it still suppose to close at the same time? I thought since it'd be retarded everything would come later.
[ March 19, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Mr JoCo ]
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'89 - Boss Coupe
'70 - Drop Cutthang
'68 - Cougnut
'87 - 0166, Its real
Posts: 3953 | From: Thebay | Registered: Jul 2002
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AJBlackGT
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Member # 3936
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posted
Oh shit sorry man, I forgot to give you the cam card when you picked up the cam. Did you find all the specs alright?
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90 Notch
Posts: 1896 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Dec 2003
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JohnB
Tech Moderator
Member # 969
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posted
Your car is blown, right? If so, why would you retard it?
(FYI, I have the same cam... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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1965 Shelby Cobra
1993 Cobra
2012 F150 Raptor
2020 GT500
Posts: 6523 | From: Orlando FL/Redding CA | Registered: Mar 2002
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166 Merlo
FELONY
MOTORSPORTS
Member # 1549
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posted
I'm going off 93pony's recommendations, I figured he knows better than me.
how'd u install yours? what about my results? I just want to see if anyone sees anythign wrong here.
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'89 - Boss Coupe
'70 - Drop Cutthang
'68 - Cougnut
'87 - 0166, Its real
Posts: 3953 | From: Thebay | Registered: Jul 2002
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JohnB
Tech Moderator
Member # 969
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posted
I installed mine straight up. Results? 460+ to the rear, and that's with the ignition cutting out over 4500 rpms. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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1965 Shelby Cobra
1993 Cobra
2012 F150 Raptor
2020 GT500
Posts: 6523 | From: Orlando FL/Redding CA | Registered: Mar 2002
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CDT
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Member # 5004
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posted
all the #'s should move.
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Custom Dyno Tuning
510.331.0608
Home of Flat Fee Tuning For All Cars, Trucks and SUV's, EFI & Carb, SCT, AFR, Dynatech, STS Turbos, N2O Refills
Posts: 1053 | From: Hayward | Registered: Nov 2004
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Degree the exhaust lobe & post the results @.050 lobe lift.
Re-degree the intake lobe just to verify the #'s. (no need to find peak lift, .050 #'s are good enough)
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
if everything checks out on the 4 degree retard slot on the chain then it should be at 112 ICL which is straight up (112 ICL, 112 ECL, 112 LSA) People get confused because of the chain when it's really only a link and might need to be adjusted to get the intended ICL no matter if the cam had preground advance or not. If it's put in on a 108 ICL (advanced 4) the ECL(exhaust centerline) is 116 and LSA stays constant 112. Straight up is when they're all the same.
People ask why retard it on the chain etc. Think about it for a sec. Most cam's come advanced 4 degrees ground in. If you remove the 4 then you're back at zero or straight up. Now if you have a bigger cam and advance it (intake lobe) you then open the intake valve more before TDC. What does this do for flow? This will only help if you have significant overlap to help air move into the cylinder before the piston moves down the bore. If the intake valve opens later it will be chasing the piston down the bore and you get more cylinder fill that way. Basically the cam is at peak lift farther down the bore. Now cylinder pressure can't happen until the valve shuts. Cylinder pressure is made from compression and cylinder fill and takes the combination of both. If you advance it you can potentially get less fill but more cranking compression. If you run it straight up as defined above you can potentially gain cylinder fill but have slightly less cranking compression. In a nut shell they can cancel each other out (advance vs. retard) at lower revs. But the intake lobe that's run advanced will run out of steam the higher you rev it and this is where the difference comes in. Basically on efi stuff running the cam at straight up to slight retard doesn't effect torque but will help top end tremendously. Also you can run a smaller intake lobe while run at straight up or slight retard when compared to a bigger one that's advanced. this will help driveability and vacuum. The other benefit is it will open the exhaust side later which saves more exhaust energy on overlap and reduces exhaust reversion. Now boost is a whole other ball game. it can band aid a lot of things that an NA motor can't.
[ March 19, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: AaronC ]
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
Not to start a argument but retarding a cam that is advanced 4 degrees as ground can also hurt top end HP and over all TQ. LOL here we go again. I will post a nice article about a Comp Cam that was installed as ground (+4) straight up and andvanced 4 degrees. retarding the cam to straight up lost almost 20 hp.it was a nice cam XR286R in a 347 with AFR185's
http://www.californiafords.com/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=00001951/cam_chart.JPG
[ March 19, 2005, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
Not to start a argument but retarding a cam that is advanced 4 degrees as ground can also hurt top end HP and over all TQ. LOL here we go again. I will post a nice article about a Comp Cam that was installed as ground (+4) straight up and andvanced 4 degrees. retarding the cam to straight up lost almost 20 hp.it was a nice cam XR286R in a 347 with AFR185's
Was this an EFI car or a Carb car? My guess is carb. There is a BIG difference. Is this from a magazine article? What centerlines are the fastest and biggest power makers (NA) running locally?
[ March 19, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: AaronC ]
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
It is a magazine article but done on a real engine Dyno. I am not sure what Kevin Lockes or the Bounty Hunters cam angles are set at? I belive they have the most Power and are the fastest? I just found the article interesting. I personaly have never changed a cams degrees while set up on a Dyno. I don't have one. You said NA I didn't see it. The dyno test was done on a NA engine. I have tested results on NA cars at the track but that is it. Both EFI and Carb.
[ March 19, 2005, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
It is a magazine article but done on a real engine Dyno. I am not sure what Kevin Lockes or the Bounty Hunters cam angles are set at? I belive they have the most Power and are the fastest? I just found the article interesting. I personaly have never changed a cams degrees while set up on a Dyno. I don't have one. You said NA I didn't see it. The dyno test was done on a NA engine. I have tested results on NA cars at the track but that is it. Both EFI and Carb.
That's fine that we can agree that we disagree on this subject. But carb intakes have shorter runners and the air doesn't make a U turn like an EFI 5.0 does so the carb intake will flow more. EFI intakes will need more overlap, and later intake closing points to work correctly over a carb setup. I'm not the one that came up with this stuff, I just restate what I've learned from Brian at HiTech and what he's proven with all the NA setups around. One pops up just about every week now and that doesn't happen for no reason. There are tons of LS1's making tremendous power with the same cam timing. 93Pony just did a cam for a guy with an LS1 that did 400/400 (116 traps in a heavy, DR tire, undergeared car) with stock heads and with a 125 shot of nitrous ran 129.9 mph. That's the highest trapping car with those parts around. By 5mph with less nitrous than anything comparable. Funny how his reverse pattern cam that's run without advance picked up so much on bottle but did exactly what Brian has said from the beginning on shots under 150 RWHP. I'll keep preaching what I see that's working. There's solid theory and explanation behind it and it's been proven time and time again around here. If you'd like to explain your theory as to why you believe what you do then I'm all ears. I just had an hour long conversation with Jay Allen hearing out his thoughts on different things. He's another really bright guy.
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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JohnB
Tech Moderator
Member # 969
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posted
...And how exactly does this "pissing-contest in the making" answer the original question in the post?
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1965 Shelby Cobra
1993 Cobra
2012 F150 Raptor
2020 GT500
Posts: 6523 | From: Orlando FL/Redding CA | Registered: Mar 2002
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
what about short runner EFI cars? 129 is a nice MPH does the car do 400 before the 150 shot? thats 550 rwhp which I don't see why it wouldn't trap so high. BTW under geared cars respond very nicely to NOS because of the huge tourqe increase. I don't know brian at high tech. I did think it was kind of funny that 93pony is using FTI on his own stuff. didn't he used to be a high tech guy? There is no problem with discusing cam theroy. There are a bunch of different points of view.
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
what about short runner EFI cars? 129 is a nice MPH does the car do 400 before the 150 shot? thats 550 rwhp which I don't see why it wouldn't trap so high. BTW under geared cars respond very nicely to NOS because of the huge tourqe increase. I don't know brian at high tech. I did think it was kind of funny that 93pony is using FTI on his own stuff. didn't he used to be a high tech guy? There is no problem with discusing cam theroy. There are a bunch of different points of view.
JohnB- I thought this was a discussion of cams not a pissing contest. I certainly am not taking it this way.
2stangs- Short runner EFI intakes that still have a U turn will still need different timing. Yes I know what your saying in regards to Scott's ls1 and grearing etc. I was mainly trying to state it was under geared for motor and that there would be more left if it was strictly NA. I forget the exact #'s it made on bottle but it was more than what the shot is. Most people always say that nitrous etc needs big exhaust bias etc but this cam is still intake bias and rocked on the bottle. In regards to 93Pony you'll have to ask him. Maybe he's plotting a cam of his own vs. a FTI one? Now please explain your theory in detail as that's what I really want to hear.
[ March 21, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: AaronC ]
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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166 Merlo
FELONY
MOTORSPORTS
Member # 1549
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posted
I redegreed the cam and got the right numbers ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
I noticed that I gained about .020"-.030" of much needed clearance on the intake valve when I ran the cam retarded as opposed to straight up also.
--------------------
'89 - Boss Coupe
'70 - Drop Cutthang
'68 - Cougnut
'87 - 0166, Its real
Posts: 3953 | From: Thebay | Registered: Jul 2002
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Reverse-splits with zero advance have their place. Simple as that.
The cam in 91PONY's car fits the intended pourpose....although it too has zero advance. By the initial dyno/test driving results it seems as though she currently has too much exhaust (system or lobe, you choose). I don't have plans on doing a cam swap....but if I do, it'll be solid roller ment for higher RPM.....& as we all know, as RPM increases, so does the requirement for more intake/exhaust....one way or another.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Chew on this...
Drew has a reverse-split in his 347. HP per cube on his car is 1.25 thru a T5 & a motor that was basically slapped together. (no offense Drew)
91PONY's car made 1.21hp per cube thru a 3550 & I did everything I could think of to give it an edge while building it. (block/crank prep, crank scraper, etc)
At 210cc's Drews heads are 1-2% larger per cube then 91PONY's AFR's given cubic inch.... Both motors peak within 100rpm of each other.
Intake & exhaust systems on both cars are very similar given cubic inch. Both have true 3-inch exhaust, both have un-restriced intake paths that help the motors peak at 6400-6500rpm.
I know there's more in 91PONY's....but there's more in Drew's as well! & as it sits right now, Drew's motor is more efficient.....& has a 3 year old reverse-split sitting between the heads.
The fastest N/A 302 based motor on this site runs what cam?
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr JoCo:
I redegreed the cam and got the right numbers
I noticed that I gained about .020"-.030" of much needed clearance on the intake valve when I ran the cam retarded as opposed to straight up also.
Good job.
Setup is key when degreeing..... That's why I suggested re-doing it on both intake & exhaust....to verify the results.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
I don't know who has the fastest 302N/A on this site to be honest with you. I know there are some fast ones.
BTW 93pony you are losing HP using the 3550 as compared to the T-5 which I am sure you know. so it it is hard to make a motor comparison when the drivetrains are different.
Aaron the point I was making was not every cam performs better retarded. and I just wanted to post a dyno test to show a little backup.(I just wish it was clearer). It was also a free breathing motor so there was no cam grinding to make up for the problem areas like restricted full exhaust system and belive it or not my theroy changes buy aplication. NA to Supercharged to NOS(plus engine make also matters). Anderson motor sports had a nice article on cam degreeing in supercharged aplications and prefured the cam advanced to help the low end power which it did in this case. Just like the dyno test I posted. I actualy was a little surprised buy the results of the article also.
John B we are being nice stop trying to stir crap up you trouble maker LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ March 22, 2005, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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JohnB
Tech Moderator
Member # 969
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posted
Ok, I'll be nice. But only until page 3 of your tennis match...then I'm breakin' out the ![[BS flag]](graemlins/bs_flag.gif) flag! lol
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1965 Shelby Cobra
1993 Cobra
2012 F150 Raptor
2020 GT500
Posts: 6523 | From: Orlando FL/Redding CA | Registered: Mar 2002
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
Aaron the point I was making was not every cam performs better retarded. and I just wanted to post a dyno test to show a little backup.(I just wish it was clearer). It was also a free breathing motor so there was no cam grinding to make up for the problem areas like restricted full exhaust system and belive it or not my theroy changes buy aplication. NA to Supercharged to NOS(plus engine make also matters). Anderson motor sports had a nice article on cam degreeing in supercharged aplications and prefured the cam advanced to help the low end power which it did in this case. Just like the dyno test I posted. I actualy was a little surprised buy the results of the article also.
John B we are being nice stop trying to stir crap up you trouble maker LOL
I understand different applications. Which applications do I always respond to? EFI 5.0 and LS1 applications. That's what I know best. Your example was a carb motor which I know likes more traditional timing. I won't dispute that. I didn't recommend retarding a cam to a guy with a carb setup. I already explained the differences between the intakes. I also agree that camming changes on application. It is also my idea that if the cam in EFI stuff needs to be advanced on the intake side then the lobe is too big and you should step down. By using an aggressive lobe on the intake side you keep cylinder pressure high. You maximize lobe area and flow for a given amount of time or duration. By using it without advance you are closing it later. If you use a bigger lobe and advance it, you can have the same closing point as the smaller lobe without advance and pull the same RPM. The difference is the smaller cam will idle and drive better. This is one reason I see brian's cams make so much power for their size when compared to other customs or off shelves. I hear you say that advancing helps low end power but show me an example of the local guys that are lacking low end power with their HiTech stuff? If you look around they make the same or more than anything you'll find. Again it's in the whole cam profile and looks odd at first but if you take a moment and think about his theory, it's explained in simple terms and makes complete sense. Most importantly it's backed up with repeatable results. I'd still like to hear your theories in detail
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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2stangs69-91
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Member # 1951
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posted
we can discuss theroy over a brew sometime. There realy is a ton of stuff that goes into it and i would rather talk about it then type it to be honest with you. I don't know who all runs high tech stuff either plus I don't know there numbers . In reality if a custom cam grinder is good you shouldn't have to change were it is ground more than a degree or to in order to compensate for the chain and gear set acuracy. BTW FTI custom cams are to be degreed differently because of car weight. He wants you to advance the cam on heavier cars to help bring the heavier cars out quicker more down low tourqe(that is on long runner EFI manifolds). Advancing the intake lobe also closes the intake valve earlier bringing up running compression . There is so much involved with cams we haven't even gotten into... reversion and over scavaging or under scavaging and so on and on.........
[ March 23, 2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
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69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
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AaronC
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Member # 86
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
[QB] we can discuss theroy over a brew sometime. /QB]
Sounds like a good idea.
[ March 23, 2005, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: AaronC ]
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1991 GT Convertible: Stock 157k mile shortblock, HiTech cam, AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1 3/4 headers
12.23 at 112.99
Best MPH 113.97
Posts: 776 | From: woodland | Registered: Dec 2000
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