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Author
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Topic: Need input!
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lpj
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Member # 6125
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posted
 
 
Ran @ Buttonwillow for the 1st. time in early April. What a KICK!!
I have a 90 LX 5.0 that still has stock heads & cam, but I've added 1.7:1 rockers, an intake and headers, 70mm TB, 76mm MAS and 24# injectors plus a K&N. It has a 5 spd. 7 3.73 gears.
It has full length subframe connectors, strut tower brace, cambre/caster platesthe chassis HD rear control arms, panhard bar & adjustable rear sway bar. the springs lower the car about 1-1/2" and are 650#/" in front and 200#/" in the rear. Shocks are KYB adjustables. Brakes are 13" Cobra's in front and MK VII's in the rear.
The tires are 245/45/17 Flakens with a treadwear index of 360.
I got out run by most of the cars and after talking to several guys out there I came away with this:
Aside from my lack of skills, I need -
1. Sticky tires. Nitto NT01's or maybe TOYO RA1's.
2. Stiffer springs. I am looking seriously at going to coil overs and a torque arm. Maximum Motor Sports looks like a good product.
3. Don't have an opinion on shocks, but assume I will have to change to go to Coil overs.
4. Need a better seat and restraints. Looking at Corbeau because they have a road race style that will fit my big butt.
5. Will add a 6 piont bar.
Comments please! i am new to alot of this and do not have $$$ to waste.
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Posts: 11 | Registered: Oct 2005
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SteveL
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Member # 1241
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posted
Safety items like a seat and belts is always a good thing. Brake ducts can also help alot but I'd bet you would be surprised how much faster the car can go even in its current setup.
Sure driving fast is fun but after a few events you'll come to learn it's really about car control. How to recognize and drive the car at the edge of control and how to reel it back in if you go over the line.
It's not how fast you drive but how well you drive fast.
Posts: 578 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2002
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lpj
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Member # 6125
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posted
Thanks for the input. I accept that I have much to learn about driving fast, but the 3 guys I talked to that were going fast all said I needed more tire and springs. Having better equipment, even while learning how to use it, has to be more fun. Safer??? How much is enough? My tires are hard. treadware rating = 360. My springs are about 650#/" front & 200#/" rear. How stiff is enough? 1000#/"? Should I be looking at coil overs? I can and will practice driving techs., but I don't want to practice too many times with my wallet ($$) or my sweat. I do most of the work myself and enjoy it, but do overs because I didn't ask questions are not fun. Any other driving tips will also be appreciated.
Thanks again.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Oct 2005
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1Sicgt
CAFords OG
Member # 714
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posted
Ok first thing first.. Practice, practice, practice.
Do not go and get race type tires until you have a few more track sessions under your belt. Going with better tires does help, but with lack of skills in reading what the car is really doing, going to a track tire can be dangerous. Track tires don't give off that usual squeal. When you are learning that helps you understand when the car is going to actually break loose. On track tires it sticks and sticks then snaps loose. Without control skills or knowledge, a wall might be your fate.
Most important things are breaks and controlling body roll. Coilovers you can run a softer spring then you can with a regular coil setup. On my car set up for AI, I run 450# front springs and 425# rear springs. Gives the car a solid firm ride, but allows it to feel the track without being so stiff you push.
Shocks you can run any adjustable shocks, for better tuning options. I run a Tokico front strut, with a FOX external resivor rear shock in back. My set-up has alot more custom work then the average bolt on car though. I would reccomend a Koni, Tokico D-spec, or something in that line. This gives you a good foundation to build from.
Get some good brake pads. At minumum a HAWK HP+ front and back, but a set of HAWK Blacks up front would work better on the track.
Also ask questions and have people go for ride alongs to teach you. If you ever need pointers, hit me up.
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14 Focus TS ST3 full Stg3, ready for bigger Turbo
2003 Cobra Track Car
Posts: 8145 | From: Hitting the Apex | Registered: Jan 2002
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SteveL
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Member # 1241
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posted
Since you want specifics, I would recommend at least a harness bar that goes across the B pillars, 5 point harness, and maybe a seat if yours will not work with a harness. A rollbar or cage is a step up but you want to cover any part of the bar you could come in contact with FIA rated padding. A bare steel bar is not a good thing to hit even with a helmet on. Of course a helmet, driving gloves and a 2.5lb pound fire extinguisher mounted within driver reach.
Brake ducts and a good set of pads as Jon mentioned but be careful if you're going to drive the car to the track. Some pads are worthless at cold temps and only good at elevated track temps.
Maybe some tires with a 200-250 rating. An extra set of rims just for track tires is helpful.
I would not recommend changing the suspension just yet with maybe the expcetion of caster/camber plates and a good alignment. Get used to the feel of the car, then make a change. You'll be able to better gauge the improvement. Check out similar cars at the track. Most people are more than willing to tell you what they did to their car and what they would have done different. There is no upper limit of what can be done. It all depends on how far you want to go with this.
Remember fast is a relative term. There is always someone faster. You show up at a Green Flag Drving event and I'll get you a ride in a stock Toyota Tacoma. You would be amazed at how fast a very experienced driver can get a pickup truck around a track.
[ April 24, 2007, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Roush #92 ]
Posts: 578 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2002
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lpj
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Member # 6125
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posted
To 1Sicgt & Roush #92 - Thank both of you.
I have driven in the mountians of Wyoming and Idaho most of my long life. I thought I was pretty quick--- until I got to Buttonwillow. I need PRACTICE*3. I will not change to race tires till I get more time on the track, but is there a safe and noticably better compound than a 360? is 200 considered race? Would a DOT approved tire like a TOYO RA1 be too much too soon? I am getting a fixed back seat from Corbeau that will fit my butt and a 5 pt.x3" harness. Should I attach the shoulder straps to the B pillar bar? I would like to keep the seat slider to allow me to move the seat back some to help get me outof the car. I'm 65 yrs old and over 6' tall. I like to drivecloser to the wheel than allows easy entry and exit.
Point about padding well taken. Already have a helmet & fire exting. but need gloves and shoes. Wanted to see if i liked it first. I LIKE IT! The brake pads are Hawk HPS. Is HP+ much different? Should I change to more agressive pads at the track?
I spent some time talking to the 2 quickest mustangs out there that day. I told them what I had done to the car (see my 1st. posting)and they both said coilovers and a torque arm plus tires if I wanted to improve the car. Both also said more practice!
I talked to one of the instructors there that day to do a ride along, buthe got tied up with other drivers. I really think that could be a real help.
Finally, shocks -
I think shocks are to control the movement of the springs to help keep the tires on the road. So what am I trying to feel if it seems the wheel is not bouncing up and down. I was getting wheel spin exiting the slower corners, but assumed it was due to chassis problems. I am aware there is alot to $$ spent on shocks on race cars, but whrer do I go to learn what I will someday need to know.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Oct 2005
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1Sicgt
CAFords OG
Member # 714
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posted
Ok, I would go with a harness bar, minumum, but better would obviously be a basic 4pt. roll bar with harness bar. This would give you a good solid mount for the belts as well as a little peace of mind in case of the worst possible happening.
I would say a good beginner tire would be a Nitto 555. They can handle the hot to cold changes better then most street tires. BFG's get great traction, but once hot they turn hard. And then you loose any gains. Yoko's do the same. The Toyo RA1 is a DOT track tire, same as the Nitto 555 RII and NT-01, Kumho Victoracer, etc. These have 2000 or less treadwear, and grip alot better then the average street tire, but wear quite abit faster.
The spinning of tires can be from many things. To me, first thing that comes to mind is body roll, causing it. But w/o riding along, or seeing it, thats still a guess.
With the seat, get one with a solid back, not a fabric type back. This would allow for a seat brace in the future. Plus be a legal seat for more forms of track events. Some clubs do not allow fabric seat backs since there is no real seat frame or brace to keep the seat solid in a wreck.
The HPS vs HP+. Yes, there is a noticable gain in the HP+ pads. Its still a streetable pad, so you won't have to change them out.
Do you have a next event planned?
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14 Focus TS ST3 full Stg3, ready for bigger Turbo
2003 Cobra Track Car
Posts: 8145 | From: Hitting the Apex | Registered: Jan 2002
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SteveL
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Member # 1241
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posted
The conversation is maybe a week too late as I would have recommended the Shelby Club driving school at Thunderhill Sat May 5. It's full now but novice group on Sunday is still available. You need to contact Scott at Shelby to ask if they can provide any informal instruction on Sunday. Obviously there will be a lot of people there who know Mustangs.
Posts: 578 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2002
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lpj
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Member # 6125
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posted
To 1Sicgt & Roush #92 - Thanks again.
Seats- I bought a Corbeau Forza II beacuse it was wide enough for my big butt. The dealer said it was made so that a seat brace could be added. We will see next week when i get one. i also got a 5 pt. 3" wide harness. I am installing a 4 pt. roll bar with a seat brace bar (B pillar) from MM
Spinning tires - Body roll is probably a major contributer. I was sitting on a marshmellow, but the car was leaning so sevearly in the corners that I was almost out of the seat.The rear tires would rub in the harder turns. We all agree I need to practice, so I figure I should practice in a car that is reasonably well preped. To that end, I'm going to invest in the torque arm and coliovers. I have already done the bulk of what MM tech people suggest prior to the torque arm and the coilovers.
Brakes - I will get a set of HP+.
School - I did an all day dirve/schooling seasion with Speed Ventures @ Buttonwillow, but intend to get more 1 on 1 turtoring the next time out.
Next event - Nothing planned. I'm very busy till late May. Helping a guy get a C gas car going, then vacation in Idaho. When I get back I will order the parts. I will install the coilovers in the evenings when it cools down, so it will be slow. Probably won't be ready (maybe not willing to be in a car w/o air in 110 degree weather) till Sept or Oct.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Oct 2005
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lpj
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Member # 6125
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posted
To 1Sicgt -
I went to your companies website and see you are a dealer for Maximum Motorsports equipment. That is the brand I want to buy. Problem - I can't find a phone # to call to discuss spicific spring rates and which torque arm I need.
[ April 28, 2007, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: lpj ]
Posts: 11 | Registered: Oct 2005
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harley56
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Member # 6731
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posted
Might want to check out what some of the mustangs are doing in the http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/ series. These guys would be extremely helpful if you were to post up your set-up and ask questions. Also, might want to look at their for sale section. Two mustangs recently listed that, I believe, share there suspension set-up. These cars are extremely limited on their mods and are turning 2:05 at Thunderhill, 1:55 at Infineon and 2:09 at buttonwillow, but there are many configurations there. One thing that will get you faster the quickest is a good instructor doing a session with you. Should not need coilovers, we're pretty much running Koni single, or double adjustable shocks.
Posts: 89 | From: Sonoma county | Registered: Apr 2006
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PacGreenCobra
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Member # 7387
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posted
Hey guys, I'm new to this forum.
Maximum Motorsports' # is (805)544-8748...
About the seats and tires- I just got Corbeau TRS seats and Kumho EcstaMX tires, 275/40/17 with a treadwear rating of 220 ( I think)...and are considered "summer tires" - and I can tell you that both the car's roadholding ability and my ability to stay planted have greatly improved over stock. I'm pretty sure Maximum Motorsports makes a coilover kit for your shocks, if not you might want to check out QA1 coilovers- my brother runs QA1's with Strange adjustable shocks and he can switch between a drag setup w/soft springs to a much stiffer setp for the track in only a few minutes. Coilovers will also allow you to fine-tune your ride height.
Posts: 40 | From: Oakland | Registered: Jan 2007
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PacGreenCobra
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Member # 7387
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Can anyone recommend driving schools in the Bay Area or Santa Barbara area?
Posts: 40 | From: Oakland | Registered: Jan 2007
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harley56
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Member # 6731
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posted
Take a look at signing up with http://www.nasaproracing.com/. It's affordable, they offer instructors, four different run groups based upon abilities and quite a bit of track time. Might need to sign up early as sometimes their run groups fill up in a hurry.
Posts: 89 | From: Sonoma county | Registered: Apr 2006
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1Sicgt
CAFords OG
Member # 714
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posted
PacGreen-
Actually for Lee's setup he has you do not want coilovers with those struts. They are not built properly to handle the extra load of the coilovers.
I have set him up with a killer combo so when he gets back from his next time out. Hopefully he will share with everyone the setup and how he likes it.
Also for other track events check out Trackmasters.com
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14 Focus TS ST3 full Stg3, ready for bigger Turbo
2003 Cobra Track Car
Posts: 8145 | From: Hitting the Apex | Registered: Jan 2002
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PacGreenCobra
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Member # 7387
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posted
Thanks for the advice. I just put in strange 10-ways w/o a coilover setup, running Eibach 1-1/2" drop springs. I want to switch over to a coilover setup soon, are you saying that the strange parts are not strong enough for street driving and the occasional open track day with a coilover conversion from maximum or a similar setup?? If so, what shocks/struts are sufficient for the conversion?
Also- I was wondering what the next step should be for my car to improve street/track handling...so far I have MM subframe connectors, control arms, panhard bar. 6pt. cage, strange 10-ways, eibach springs on a '97 cobra with kumho ecsta mx 275's all the way around. I was thinking about a K-member, but they're expensive- what about a torque arm? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.
Posts: 40 | From: Oakland | Registered: Jan 2007
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dpracingdan
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Member # 5778
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posted
Some very good advice so far.
My qualifications: NASA road race instructor. Driver/team owner for Kumho Tires. Run a Griggs Racing built/sponsored 87 5.0 in the professional drifting series called formula drift.
If you can, you should make it out to an event called Grip & Slip held at Thunderhill in willows, ca, July 5th. I'll be there w my Mustang, and would love to help u out. If you can't, definately make it out to NASA events. check out www.nasaproracing.com & select the Nor-Cal region. You want to sign up for HPDE 1 or 2 (drivers educational program). Lots of great folks/drivers.
I agree with the brake pad upgrade- Hawk blacks or blues is my preference- Griggs told me don't even bother with HPS.
Coil overs- huge gain in car control. I prefer Konis or Bilsteins. I have D.A. Konis.
Torque Arm will help a lot too. Anything you can do to tighten up the suspension/body roll, etc. will greatly help your car control.
Front suspension- If u dont have camber/castor plates. Get em. Try and set the castor to atleast 5 degrees, and camber about 2 degrees. This will help your front grip considerably.
I also am big on weight. You dont have to strip the car, but try and reduce your nose weight. The fox chassis is very bad weight balanced. Its roughly 63% front heavy.
Feel free to look me up if you ever wanna meet at a track day or just talk about setup/racing/mustangs.
www.dpracing.org
Good luck!
Dan
Posts: 314 | Registered: Jun 2005
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