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Posted by Blow_U_In_Reverse (Member # 12298) on :
 
So I need some advice..

im doing a 351w project for my 82 and am stuck on which heads I should get..

my setup is dish pistons, said to give 8.5:1 compression with stock lightning heads.. roller motor(94 lightning block), mild cam, gt40 lightning intake..

I am going to be boosting the motor with a procharger, but low boost.. 10-12psi..

the car isnt going to see much track time and its probably never gonna turn past 6500 rpm.. its mostly gonna be a street car that WILL be driven to the corner store or cruises and stuff..

I dont know which heads to get for my setup though.. I was thinking AFR 185's but willbthey be too small? I was getting a good deal on victor jrs but am scared those will be a little too big for what I have in mind..

any suggestions will help..

-FiJi-
 

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Posted by SLOW95GTS (Member # 10365) on :
 
Victor jr's are perfect but if your not lookng for speed, id just get the cheapest set you can get your hands on.
 

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Posted by Blow_U_In_Reverse (Member # 12298) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SLOW95GTS:
Victor jr's are perfect but if your not lookng for speed, id just get the cheapest set you can get your hands on.

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You dont think they will be too big with a mild cam n low boost?? Also, what would be better 1.6 or 1.7 roller rockers?
 

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Posted by SLOW95GTS (Member # 10365) on :
 
Depends on the cam, and victor jr's are perfect for a 351w and their cheap too. That set up with a .500 lift and up cam should be around 450 to the wheels. Hopefully you got a good tranny for it lol.
 

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Posted by ed650 (Member # 9897) on :
 
I dont see how your going to benefit from a bigger heavier motor if your going to throw 302 heads on it..you might as well stay 302 if you you get afr 185 heads .. id do it right and get the victor jr heads.
 

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Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
bigger internal cubes over stock require more airflow over stock. i think a 351 should start at a 200 flow head unless u wana just get groceries.the 170 trick flows where designed for your base 302, the 185,s are for a hyped 302 or beginning 331, look what folks are running on there 347,s. this is just a rounded off estimate but u get the idea? the victor jr,s sound crazy on a 302 unless highly built but well be just fine for flow on a 351 if the vavles clear the pistons.
yes 351,s came stock with crap heads but again they where not reving past 4500 rpm and wanted big torque at like 2500 to move big trucks lol. mustangs are not trucks.
 

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Posted by diablounicorn (Member # 13033) on :
 
I always read if u have a 351 don't go with 302 heads cause you'll see 302 power gains and not 351 power gains. 302 heads are 165cc-190cc.

That said, youre supercharging anyway not like you would notice right? Trickflow 205s something you could look into
 

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Posted by Blow_U_In_Reverse (Member # 12298) on :
 
Gotchaa.. im not really familiar with 351w setups which is exactly why i posted here.. My main concern was getting heads that were TOO big for my purpose because it would never see high rpms past 6500.. my main concern with trickflows is cutting the pistons which is why I was leaning towards AFR or victor jrs.. after reading ur posts I think ima go with the victor jr heads..

thanks fellaz
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
Well the best flowing heads are AFR 165 if memory serves me for small fords. And as far as PV clearance it is a must to check it. My experience with small fords is anything over 480-500 total lift is getting real critical. naturally there are several variables like deck height head milling cams size of the valves and cam overall specks degreeing and overlap and duration. But with a cam that is at or below 500 and AFR heads on 10 Lbs of boost it will be a stretch to obtain 400 WHP. Other than that make sure you check PV clearance and keep the lobe centers at or around 110-112* I would go for a cam of at least 560-580L and make sure you check the PV CLEARANCE especially on that engine,VJ heads in my view are better for more cubes and i would not hesitate one minute to use them and cut the pistons. But AFR has some other heads that will do the job nicely. But you need more lift than 500. Good luck and use a bigger cam @ 500 you are limited to @ or around 400 MAX

[ 2013-12-27, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by racsirx (Member # 1710) on :
 
You should also worry about that intake being too small unless you do some heavy port work. Saleen S351s came with Edelbrock Performer heads and TFS Twisted Wedge 170s, heavily ported Cobra Intake with a Vortech S-trim and made around 500hp, almost any head will work but the bigger the head, you should get a bigger intake, like a TFS R intake with the Victor Jr heads or the AFR185 heads. I am leaving my GT40 heads and Cobra Intake on my 351 R motor with a Vortech S-trim and it should make around 450HP, I don't need any more than that since it's going to be a daily driver. I found a guy on SVT Performance in the Cobra R section claiming 420rwhp with his stock 351 R motor with just a S-trim.
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
I found a guy on SVT Performance in the Cobra R section claiming 420rwhp with his stock 351 R motor with just a S-trim. Hard to believe!!
 

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Posted by racsirx (Member # 1710) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
I found a guy on SVT Performance in the Cobra R section claiming 420rwhp with his stock 351 R motor with just a S-trim. Hard to believe!!

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I guess you don't know S-trims, with a S-trim can gain 150-200hp depending on how you set them up, pulley size and race gas can do a lot. I have done 417rwhp with 306, stock cam, GT40 heads, GT40 intake and S-trim , I don't think the motor without the S-trim was even making 300hp at the flywheel. I also have done a 306, e303 cam, Edelbrock Performer Heads, GT40 intake with a S-trim and made 474rwhp, I don't think the motor without the S-trim was even making 350hp at the flywheel. Both setups had the same blower with 2.80" blower pulley and 7.00 crank pulley with a Cartech Powerpipe and were tuned with a 110 octane.
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
Just a question i have for all this RWH numbers from these engines. How much does it cost and what can you compare it to!! Also what type of dyne are you using for these numbers?? just curious!!

So basically with an S TRIM blower transmission you want people to know you have a blower when the hood is closed. SO you went from 300 WHP To 472 WHP. With a blower Fascinating!! Lets see that blower takes how many ponies to spin it. I was born at night but!!!!

[ 2013-12-28, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by racsirx (Member # 1710) on :
 
It's $200/HR, I believe I did all these were on a Dynojet, an A-trim will give an extra 100hp max with the HP taken to spin it, a S-trim will give an extra 150-200hp with the HP taken to spin it.
 

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Posted by SLOWSN95 (Member # 8269) on :
 
When I used to operate the dyno when we tuned at Mustang Ranch, 480 rwhp was quite common on a HCI S-trimmed 302.. and that was usually obtained on 9:1 compression and 18-19 degrees of timing with 12lbs of boost. The dyno was a dynojet 248 which is one of the more accurate dynos you can use.

[ 2013-12-29, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: SLOWSN95 ]
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
Ok just checking but the most feared Mustang by a Mustang owner is the photo bellow. I have dynowed hundreds of these combinations and was just curious thats all. What i meant was how much it cost to make the hp numbers that were posted. Going to say thousands. Thank you for the response.


[ 2013-12-29, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
who shop it that? lol u took a selfie lol
 

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Posted by red5o (Member # 12651) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
who shop it that? lol u took a selfie lol

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LoL......
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
Just changing out the burnt belts after sever high HP PULLS. My son snapped the photo and he did it for laughs. Thank you.

[ 2013-12-29, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
oh its gd dam i wish i had my own dyno, pretty funny pic though u know like i own this shit and what?? lol gd day
 

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Posted by racsirx (Member # 1710) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
Ok just checking but the most feared Mustang by a Mustang owner is the photo bellow. I have dynowed hundreds of these combinations and was just curious thats all. What i meant was how much it cost to make the hp numbers that were posted. Going to say thousands. Thank you for the response.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 91redmustang:
Well have spoken with Ed Curtis of FTI and he suggested the 195 AFR heads with one his custom cams for my stock 351 lightning motor, TFS R intake and single turbo. Car is basically going to be a street car will a few visits to the track.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sleeping stallion:
165afr heads f cam 5lbs mid 400 here

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quote:

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Originally posted by sleeping stallion:
308 I'd have to dig out the dyno sheet to see exact power band

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
Well the best flowing heads are AFR 165 if memory serves me for small fords. And as far as PV clearance it is a must to check it. My experience with small fords is anything over 480-500 total lift is getting real critical. naturally there are several variables like deck height head milling cams size of the valves and cam overall specks degreeing and overlap and duration. But with a cam that is at or below 500 and AFR heads on 10 Lbs of boost it will be a stretch to obtain 400 WHP. Other than that make sure you check PV clearance and keep the lobe centers at or around 110-112* I would go for a cam of at least 560-580L and make sure you check the PV CLEARANCE especially on that engine,VJ heads in my view are better for more cubes and i would not hesitate one minute to use them and cut the pistons. But AFR has some other heads that will do the job nicely. But you need more lift than 500. Good luck and use a bigger cam @ 500 you are limited to @ or around 400 MAX

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Guess i havent made it clear enough lol, but piston to valve clearance has nothing to do with valve lift/total valve or any lift of that matter. Lift doesnt do anything to clearance. If you think so, then you must not know valve events. Duration overlap lsa are the main ingredients, then milling and decking but certainly not lift whatsoever.
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
Do you really think i do not know that!! Intake closest @ or around 10* ATDC. Exhaust @ or about 10* BTDC. I cut these pistons for a special application. As the pistons for this engine are obsolete. I had to reduce the compression to make them work. Here is the results.

OVERLAP>>> This is the time when both the intake and the exhaust valves are open simultaneously.This is when PV is critical. With bigger valves and X overlap that is the danger point. Increasing lift always increases the chance of a wrecked motor from clearance issues. It has to be checked and i do it on every engine we build. Now there are engines that are known to be safe with certain combinations but checking is a must. Hope i cleared that up.




Sometimes you really have to get crazy



[ 2014-01-01, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
u didnt do that lol
 

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Posted by Mr.10psi (Member # 11062) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
Do you really think i do not know that!! Intake closest @ or around 10* ATDC. Exhaust @ or about 10* BTDC. I cut these pistons for a special application. As the pistons for this engine are obsolete. I had to reduce the compression to make them work. Here is the results.

OVERLAP>>> This is the time when both the intake and the exhaust valves are open simultaneously.This is when PV is critical. With bigger valves and X overlap that is the danger point. Increasing lift always increases the chance of a wrecked motor from clearance issues. It has to be checked and i do it on every engine we build. Now there are engines that are known to be safe with certain combinations but checking is a must. Hope i cleared that up.




Sometimes you really have to get crazy

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
WELL got this from the speck sheets from several cam manufacturer for checking PV clearance.


If you are going to use rocker arms with a higher than stock rocker ratio now or in the future, you will need to check piston to valve clearance with the higher ratio rocker at this time. (Higher ratio rockers increase gross valve lift). And can decrease piston to valve clearance.

Here is another engine builder that just does ford engines. QUOTE!!

Most ford engines with a valve lift of less than .500" should be good to go in regards to P/V clearance. If higher lifts are anticipated you should check the piston to valve clearance on Ford engines.
Thank you

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quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.

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I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan
 

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Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on :
 
Put some GT40's N keep the stock springs on it Fiji.
 

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Posted by Blow_U_In_Reverse (Member # 12298) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by NEIGHT:
Put some GT40's N keep the stock springs on it Fiji.

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GOOD advice bro.. FINALLY someone with some good input! Lmao
 

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Posted by 79 cobra (Member # 10137) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr.10psi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.

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I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan

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quote:

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Originally posted by 79 cobra:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr.10psi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift, but normally for super high lift cams in that scenario.

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I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan

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LMFAO yes lift can cause ptv clearance issues so your saying a cam with over 550 -575 lift will work on stock pistons ur smoking crack yes lift is not the major factor duration and lsa is but still when ever putting a cam in it should be clayed and checked for clearance

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
I found a guy on SVT Performance in the Cobra R section claiming 420rwhp with his stock 351 R motor with just a S-trim. Hard to believe!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr.10psi:

quote:

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Originally posted by 79 cobra:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr.10psi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Motors:
hold on am i hearing valve lift doesn't have anything to do with valve to piston interference? now im no expert but lets roundabout say if the cam got 500 lift, that vavle is opening towards the piston same 500 lift, well if its a solid lifter at 0 lash so to speak. even if the piston is made specifically for the matching vavle heads,, u still gotta watch your lift,but normallyfor super high lift cams in that scenario.

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I never watch my lifts duncan. And i mean never. Ed curtis and the other pros dont give a crap about lift in regards to ptov either. The other specs are where its at not lift. My clearance are based on the degrees of overlap etc or other variables but never the lift. Peace out duncan

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LMFAO yes lift can cause ptv clearance issues so your saying a cam with over 550 -575 lift will work on stock pistons ur smoking crack yes lift is not the major factor duration and lsa is but still when ever putting a cam in it should be clayed and checked for clearance

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i suggest you give not any advice on cams at all. instead of listening to your friends why dont you listen to the pros such as ed curtis. Oh by the way i would run 600 plus lift on stock pistons. Just got to know the overlap and other specs. Not one concern would be given to peak lift lmao, what a joke. Ask shaun at aed since no one will believe me in here till he comes in saying the same shit. Better yet i will show you proof of one of ed curtis cams on stock pistons and ed curtis himself backing up and along with his customer making trickflow and mike at sfc look retarded.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/336539-stock-bottom-end-trick-flow-stage-2-cam.html

http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1384943-trick-flow-58cc-fac-170s-stock-shortblock-f-cam-%3D-nope-2.html
Time for sum schooling rookie. Enjoy the reading.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr.10psi:
Tom renzo, pretty sad that in the 48 years in the business you still dont know didly squat really? Did you even read the link i posted. Ed curtis, is a lot smarter than some outdated ass crane engineer who which noone ever uses unless your some white haired 50 year old stuck in the e cam days and 3/4 cams. ED curtis's customer put that trickflow and other guy into perspective. Guess i should tell the customer of ed curtis and ed curtis himself that he needs to pull out the cam becuz of lift causing piston to valve clearance even though hes running 605 lift on pistons. Oh not to mention hes running 10s with a stock 302 shortblock!!!

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and get off ed curtis nuts didnt no he could hold that much weight lol
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
OK PSI lets say you have a cam with 1.5 rockers and lets say the PV clearance is .080 > Installing lets say 1.7 rockers you are claiming the PV clearance does not change?? Fascinating as the higher ratio of the 1.7 rockers decreases the PV clearance across the board. Simple math dictates that. Fascinating how people do not use common sense.You might be right but i have made a hell of a lot of PONIES over those 48 years and still in business. By the way what the hell is a 3/4 CAM ? Does that mean it is 3/4 of WHAT?? Thank you PSI.

When using roller cams the acceleration ramps are much faster than flat tappet cams. So without messing with certain specks of a cam other than lift you are correct in a way!!! But normally to achieve those higher lifts normally the overlap is effected. And valve events as well. My example with the 1.5- 1.7 rockers clearly point that out. The rockers do not change anything other then the lift events and amounts. So think about what yu are saying and please refrain from insults. Otherwise i just might have to post some photos of my handy work. Thank you PSI!! +
Just for kicks.
3/4 cams were normally phrased by the flathead guys and spilled over to the overhead guys. No specks were given on the grinds as i was plotting those cams some time back. It was just a comparison to a stock cam of some lift and duration. The phrase does not tell you any specks on a particular cam. You need to know the stock configuration for comparison. A meaningless TERM in cam specks!! I have not heard this phrase in years!

What's a 3/4 Race Cam?

In the early 1950's the most popular original camshaft designers were the legendary Ed Winfield, the father of hotrodding, and Cliff Collins of Harman-Collins. If you look a Huntington's 1951 book you will find the specs for their cams listed. We've also listed some of their cams on our Flathead Performance Cams page. There were lots of cam grinders that copied Winfield and Harman-Collins cams, but these two were the designers and innovators in the early days. It was popular to refer to cams as a 1/2 Race or Semi grind and a Full Race grind. Later, there was a call for an intermediate grind between these two. To fill this demand, Ed Winfield took the intake lobe from his full race cam and the exhaust lobe from his semi cam and called it a 3/4 Race cam (see Flathead Performance Cams). It was literally half way between a full race and 1/2 race cam. Since that time, 3/4 Race has become a generic term for a high performance street cam, i.e. something less than a race cam.

[ 2014-01-21, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
Posted by an old guy with 48 years turning wrenches. I THINK!!! My memory is fading a BIT PSI!! Does this car look familiar to you PSI??? Just thought i would share a photo with you. Thanks again!!






[ 2014-01-21, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on :
 
I am no engine builder but I like to think things through in my head of what would work and what wouldn't. I'd say lift has absolutely no role in PTV clearance because I see it like this. The valve(s) can open as far as they want or can what matters is when it opens at it's peak so I'm guessing that's overlap N duration, as long as the piston isn't at TDC when the valve is fully open it shouldn't matter, right? I don't know like I said that's just my guess on this whole thing, I hope one day to build my own motor from a bare block to the end.
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
NOPE the intake is the closest at or around 5*-15* ATDC. The exhaust is the closest at or around The 5*-15* BTDC. This is on the fifth cycle of engine rotation. Whenever the lift is increased in most cams the overlap lifts are higher. This is because the acceleration ramps are more aggressive, So normally more lift means more lift across the board on the cam profile. Is this clear enough!

[ 2014-01-21, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
no he will not get it lol.
 

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Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:
NOPE the intake is the closest at or around 5*-15* ATDC. The exhaust is the closest at or around The 5*-15* BTDC. This is on the fifth cycle of engine rotation. Whenever the lift is increased in most cams the overlap lifts are higher. This is because the acceleration ramps are more aggressive, So normally more lift means more lift across the board on the cam profile. Is this clear enough!

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No it's not clear enough fucktard. I CLEARLY said I am no engine builder so it was just a fucken guess I don't need your smart remarks.
 

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Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
lol nieght he wasn,t talking to u lol please dont ban him hes helpfull if he dont get side tracked.
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
I was not being a wise guy. Just trying to make a point and it was not directed at anyone. Is there a reason i am what you called me. That was not very nice at all. Duncan normally i do not get what was it. Oh yes SIDE TRACKED. Sometimes i fix dog tracking but what is side tracking. Just messing around be COOL GUYS!!

Note if it was not clear enough i would have gone in to more detail. It was not meant to be a wise crack. There is so many things to know about cams it is ridiculous. i have been messing with them for years plotting them dynoing them so on and so forth Thank YOU!!

What is a FUCKTARD??? Never heard that one before!!!

[ 2014-01-23, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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Posted by red5o (Member # 12651) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Renzo:

What is a FUCKTARD??? Never heard that one before!!!

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a fucking retard.... He is insulting you because hes taken offence of what you said ...... Is that clear enough

[ 2014-01-24, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: red5o ]
 

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Posted by Tom Renzo (Member # 13165) on :
 
CRYSTAL!!!


crystal clear - transmitting light; able to be seen through with clarity; "the cold crystalline water of melted snow"; "crystal clear skies"; "could see the sand on the bottom of the limpid pool"; "lucid air"; "a pellucid brook"; "transparent crystal"

Or crystal clear on how PV clearances work!! I think??? Thanks . Sorry for the confusion. Carry on folks!

[ 2014-01-24, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Tom Renzo ]
 

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