This is topic Supercharger Vs. Timing in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
I've been driving around with my supercharger on for awhile now and after install I put it down to 8 degrees advanced initial timing from 14 degrees when it was naturally aspirated. So far I get a little pinging if I go WOT quickly.

I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, but it will be put onto the new engine.

Mods Are:

-Paxton SN 2000 w/Upgraded Impeller(have seen 7.5psi on my boost gauge)
-UPR Boostmaster 4" Inlet Pipe
-BBK Shorty Non Equal Length Headers
-Off Road H Pipe(stock with hollowed cats)
-MSD 6AL Box
-MSD Blaster Coil
-MSD Wires 8.5mm
-Electric Fan
-FMS 42lb Injectors
-C&L 76mm MAF
-K&N Filter
-Aluminum Radiator
-BBK 70mm Throttle Body and Spacer
-Walbro 255lph In Tank Pump
-Edelbrock Breather Filter on Valve Cover Filler Neck
-Flowmaster Delta 40 Mufflers

Other Info:

-Stock H/C/I (engine has ~120k miles)
-Stock Fuel Rails
-Stock Fuel Pressure Regulator(less than 5k miles on it)
-Stock Pullies
-All Vacuum Lines Replaced/zip tied
-New PCV Valve
-Autolite 24 Copper Plugs Gapped @ .038"
-Cap, Rotor, Wires Less than 5k miles
-EGR/Sensor Less than 5k miles
-Barometric Pressure Sensor less than 5k miles
-Bosch o2 Sensors less than 1k miles

Just curious if more timing would be safe, or should I stick with 8 degrees, or even lower timing?

[ October 31, 2011, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: FivePTSlow ]
 
Posted by 2BlueGeeTees (Member # 4702) on :
 
What kind of fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are you running? Do you have a wide band A/F gauge. What is your air/fuel running at? You may want to look into a professional tune. Nobody wants to waste good money on there combo because of the car not being tuned correctly!
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 2BlueGeeTees:
What kind of fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are you running? Do you have a wide band A/F gauge. What is your air/fuel running at? You may want to look into a professional tune. Nobody wants to waste good money on there combo because of the car not being tuned correctly!
Original Post Updated to include more info. I do not have an wideband installed yet. I plan on getting one soon. I planned on a tune once my new engine is built. No sense in spending a bunch of $ on an engine that will only be in for a couple more months.
 
Posted by CobraCoupe (Member # 7233) on :
 
Man that's the stock plug gap for N/A if your running boost gotta tighten the gap down to like .32-.35 and run one stage colder...Oh yea leave the timing at 10

[ September 24, 2011, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: CobraCoupe ]
 
Posted by 79 cobra (Member # 10137) on :
 
u need 2 get a wideband a/f ratio and yeah close ur spark plug gapp 2 around .30-35 and go one heat range colder also u need 2 get a adjustable fuel pressure regulator
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 79 cobra:
u need 2 get a wideband a/f ratio and yeah close ur spark plug gapp 2 around .30-35 and go one heat range colder also u need 2 get a adjustable fuel pressure regulator
I plan on getting a wideband soon. I thought about the gap change and plan on lowering it down a bit. It's running fine so far, but my plugs are probably about due for a change anyway, so that'll be an easy swap. I have an adjustable FPR already, but it's for my professional products fuel rail kit which is brand new and will go onto the motor I'm building
 
Posted by 1bad93 (Member # 11094) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CobraCoupe:
Man that's the stock plug gap for N/A if your running boost gotta tighten the gap down to like .32-.35 and run one stage colder...Oh yea leave the timing at 10
X2
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 1bad93:
quote:
Originally posted by CobraCoupe:
Man that's the stock plug gap for N/A if your running boost gotta tighten the gap down to like .32-.35 and run one stage colder...Oh yea leave the timing at 10
X2
I pulled all of my plugs and put the gap down to .035". The first time I stepped on it I had detonation BAD! It also could have been that it was the first 100 degree day driving with the supercharger, but in any case I turned the timing down to 9* advanced and so far no detonation has occured.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
I day 10 degrees and call it real
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I day 10 degrees and call it real
At 10* I had some really bad detonation, so I had to turn it down to 9* and it seems fine so far
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I day 10 degrees and call it real
At 10* I had some really bad detonation, so I had to turn it down to 9* and it seems fine so far
Wow. 1 degree of initial caused really bad detonation huh.......


PUT A WIDEBAND ON IT!!
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I day 10 degrees and call it real
At 10* I had some really bad detonation, so I had to turn it down to 9* and it seems fine so far
Wow. 1 degree of initial caused really bad detonation huh.......


PUT A WIDEBAND ON IT!!
I cannot say for sure. The problem showed up immediately after I changed my spark plug gap from .054 down to .035. I didn't have any audible detonation problems before that. Yesterday was also the first 100+ degree day I have driven with the supercharger on. I turned the timing down since I knew that could fix the problem and so far it has.
I plan on putting a wideband on it. You have to give me time, shit... Every spare dollar for the past several months has been going into this car I can only afford so much.

[ September 30, 2011, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: FivePTSlow ]
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I day 10 degrees and call it real
At 10* I had some really bad detonation, so I had to turn it down to 9* and it seems fine so far
Wow. 1 degree of initial caused really bad detonation huh.......


PUT A WIDEBAND ON IT!!
I cannot say for sure. The problem showed up immediately after I changed my spark plug gap from .054 down to .035. I didn't have any audible detonation problems before that. Yesterday was also the first 100+ degree day I have driven with the supercharger on. I turned the timing down since I knew that could fix the problem and so far it has.
I plan on putting a wideband on it. You have to give me time, shit... Every spare dollar for the past several months has been going into this car I can only afford so much.
You have two days to get that wideband on!!!!


haha j/k
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I day 10 degrees and call it real
At 10* I had some really bad detonation, so I had to turn it down to 9* and it seems fine so far
Wow. 1 degree of initial caused really bad detonation huh.......


PUT A WIDEBAND ON IT!!
I cannot say for sure. The problem showed up immediately after I changed my spark plug gap from .054 down to .035. I didn't have any audible detonation problems before that. Yesterday was also the first 100+ degree day I have driven with the supercharger on. I turned the timing down since I knew that could fix the problem and so far it has.
I plan on putting a wideband on it. You have to give me time, shit... Every spare dollar for the past several months has been going into this car I can only afford so much.
You have two days to get that wideband on!!!!


haha j/k
Are the narrow band gauges worth a crap, or just a waste?
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Changed my plugs to Autolite 24 Copper Plugs and put the gap at .038. I still get a tiny bit of detonation if I mash on it quickly. If I slowly accelerate and get moving pretty good then go WOT I don't get any detonation. Timing is at 8* should I retard it more?

[ October 17, 2011, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: FivePTSlow ]
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
Set your initial timing at 10 degrees, run a BTM and pull 1-2 degrees of timing per pound of boost.
 
Posted by trickflow211 (Member # 8503) on :
 
I got a btm for 130$ if u need one
 
Posted by copcar (Member # 10113) on :
 
Pull two degrees of timing. Keep in mind the timing marker is not a machined, perfectly calibrated piece. Couple that with manufacturing variances with the balancer and you may actually be running more timing than is indicated.

[ October 19, 2011, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: copcar ]
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Heard more detonation today and turned the timing down to 4* after installing the UPR Boostmaster 4" inlet pipe

[ October 28, 2011, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: FivePTSlow ]
 
Posted by 2BlueGeeTees (Member # 4702) on :
 
It seems like you have too many unknown variables too completely figure this out over the Internet. Did you ever get that wideband? And like previously stated the accuracy of your timing marks can be playing a major factor. Another thing to keep in mind is just because you don't hear a ping doesn't mean you aren't getting detonation. So be careful mashing the gas until you have it dialed in. I completely understand not wanting to spend a lot on tuning because you have another build in the works but you may want to consider it if you can't get her dialed in.
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 2BlueGeeTees:
It seems like you have too many unknown variables too completely figure this out over the Internet. Did you ever get that wideband? And like previously stated the accuracy of your timing marks can be playing a major factor. Another thing to keep in mind is just because you don't hear a ping doesn't mean you aren't getting detonation. So be careful mashing the gas until you have it dialed in. I completely understand not wanting to spend a lot on tuning because you have another build in the works but you may want to consider it if you can't get her dialed in.
I havent picked up a wideband yet. I am not sure whag I'm gonna pick up next. I was thinking msd btm, adjustable fpr, or wideband. Maybe I'll try reducing my spark plugs gap back down to .035 first. When I went to one step colder plugs I increased my gap from .035 to .038. I may change my fuel filter too eventhough it's not even a year old and not even 5k miles. Theyre cheap and an easy install. Another idea was to put a gallon of e85 in with a tank of gas to increase octane a little. That worked wonders on my srt4 before switching to 100% e85
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
I called up CUNDN Racing to ask them some questions about my setup. Unfortunately all of their techs were gone for the day, but the woman that answered the phone asked me some questions. As it turns out I forgot to unplug the hose that goes from the valve cover to the throttle body and cap the ends. I already had a breather installed, but for some reason I wasn't taking into account that means that there was un metered air entering into the engine etc. I removed the hose and capped both ends. Turned the Timing back up to right about 8* advanced and no audible detonation so far. I'm going to drive it for a couple days and see how it goes.
 
Posted by 707notchback jaejae (Member # 7958) on :
 
haha fail
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 707notchback jaejae:
haha fail
Think that was really the problem? It really is a hinderance having a pretty decent amount of car knowledge sometimes. I'm always looking for something major to be wrong. Sometimes it is the simple things haha
 
Posted by Nitmare67 (Member # 9846) on :
 
Get a wideband on it and get the AFR down around 11.5. Once you have that out of the way dial the timing in.
 
Posted by Luke87GT (Member # 21) on :
 
WOT after installing a supercharger without a wideband? [Confused]

Crazy CAFORDS members man, lol.
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Luke87GT:
WOT after installing a supercharger without a wideband? [Confused]

Crazy CAFORDS members man, lol.
This is my 2nd paxton sn supercharged 5.0 no wideband on either of them. I plan on getting one for sure, but getting one for this engine is not a priority. If I break it then it will just make me complete the new engine that is being built already. I just wanted to have fun with the stock engine for awhile until my new engine is done. I honestly thought it would have blown up in the first couple days after installing the supercharger, but as always the 5.0 engine rises to the occasion.
From my experience you have to be doing some really crazy stuff to blow up an engine. My car doesn't see WOT for long periods of time very often since I live less than 1 mile from work and most places I like to go are within a couple miles. Also the cast majority of the time I'm just cruising right around the speed limit since I have gotten used to having a clean driving record and not getting pulled over.

I think I'm going to buy a new TPS tomorrow because I've started getting jumping and high idle problems recently. Plus the tps on the car now is pretty beat up looking, so I want to replace it for the new engine anyway. I've suspected it for awhile now and it seems whenever I check it it's at a different voltage than I set it at no matter how much I tighten the screws for it.
 
Posted by Luke87GT (Member # 21) on :
 
I stopped reading half way through.

A wideband is a cheap tool that tells you exactly what the A/F looks like.

I refused to accept any arguments justifying not using one when installing a power adder or getting a new tune.

Case and point... The first mail order tune I ever received showed a 14.2:1 A/F at WOT due to my CAI (it was supposed to be conservative). I would have never known if I didn't throw that wideband on it (until it blew up lol)...
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Luke87GT:
I stopped reading half way through.

A wideband is a cheap tool that tells you exactly what the A/F looks like.

I refused to accept any arguments justifying not using one when installing a power adder or getting a new tune.

Case and point... The first mail order tune I ever received showed a 14.2:1 A/F at WOT due to my CAI (it was supposed to be conservative). I would have never known if I didn't throw that wideband on it (until it blew up lol)...
Wideband is a necessity along with boost and fuel gauges but I just cant believe you went with a mail order tune luke......data log it and send it back or just one tune???
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Luke87GT:
I stopped reading half way through.

A wideband is a cheap tool that tells you exactly what the A/F looks like.

I refused to accept any arguments justifying not using one when installing a power adder or getting a new tune.

Case and point... The first mail order tune I ever received showed a 14.2:1 A/F at WOT due to my CAI (it was supposed to be conservative). I would have never known if I didn't throw that wideband on it (until it blew up lol)...
I'm not trying to justify not using a wideband. I have one on my other car and know first hand how valuable they are. I was actually thinking about just swapping it over to the stang for now since my other car is already dialed in. There are many things that I am in need of at the moment adding up to a few thousand $$$, so I've been picking up things as they have presented themself... meaning when I find really good deals on stuff I snag it

quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by Luke87GT:
I stopped reading half way through.

A wideband is a cheap tool that tells you exactly what the A/F looks like.

I refused to accept any arguments justifying not using one when installing a power adder or getting a new tune.

Case and point... The first mail order tune I ever received showed a 14.2:1 A/F at WOT due to my CAI (it was supposed to be conservative). I would have never known if I didn't throw that wideband on it (until it blew up lol)...
Wideband is a necessity along with boost and fuel gauges but I just cant believe you went with a mail order tune luke......data log it and send it back or just one tune???
I have a boost gauge in cab already on a pillar pod. Today I replaced my TPS and cleaned my MAF sensor and just did the base idle reset procedure. Drove around a couple miles and it runs a hell of a lot better and no audible detonation. No CEL's either so far. Got it from O'Reilly lifetime warranty!
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Yesterday just for the heck of it I drove over to a local 76 that has 100 octane on pump. I put in 2.5 gallons to fill my tank up and also one bottle of NOS Octane Booster(they claim 60 points of octane which is 6 full points, so supposedly take up to 16 gallons of 91 and turn it into 97 octane) I'm realistically guessing I'm somewhere in the 94-95 octane range. All audible detonation nearly instantly went away. I turned my timing back up to 10* advanced and still no audible detonation. Looks like until I can pick up a wideband I will be mixing up some higher octane fuel to get me by. Also the seat of the pants dyno is very happy! Pulls much harder now.
 




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