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Author
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Topic: Engine Swap
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Black Pearl
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Member # 7677
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posted
 
 
Hey, i have an 02 GT. I want to get as much HP as I can out of the stock engine. Now it's my understanding that the stock GT 4.6 can only make abour 400 HP before the block cracks or somthing. I want to make at least 500 HP. What would I have to do? Would a new block or a new engine be the best way to do this? If so, what kind? Prices? I was thinking of trying to do a 5.0 swap. Would this be possible, or would it take too much fabrication? Please let me know. Keep in mind i'm not super rich and have limited access to a shop. Thanks
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If ya can't find em, GRIND EM!
Posts: 34 | From: North Sac | Registered: May 2007
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kingmoochr
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Member # 5834
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posted
swap in an 03 cobra motor. done. otherwise, boost it with a good tune. dont bother with a 5.0
Posts: 881 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Curt
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Member # 6254
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posted
the 5.0 is the one that will split, you should be fine on boost
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'90 GT
'94 Toyota 4wd "It have problem"
'56 F100 5.8 AFR185's Vortech SC S-trim
Posts: 866 | From: Monterey/Rocklin | Registered: Nov 2005
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
Just throwing this in here, but for the price of a 2003/4 cobra motor you might be able to get a pretty decent dart blocked, 8.2 decked 331 or 347 combo going...just food for thought...
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2013 Shelby GT500
2011 Porsche 911 TurboS/AWD
2014 GSXR750
2002 GSXR750 Track Beater Bike
2016 Explorer Unlimted
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thirteen Twenty
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Member # 7961
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posted
I would think 600 hp is fine with a stock 4.6 block,
you could always stroke the 4.6 more cubes would soak up a bigger cam and prolly even be smogable
Posts: 647 | From: union city | Registered: Oct 2007
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JohnB
Tech Moderator
Member # 969
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posted
You will have a stock 4.6 piston give up before the block does. If you're going to do it right, at least have upgraded rods/forged pistons in the mix before throwing a ton of boost at it.
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1965 Shelby Cobra
1993 Cobra
2012 F150 Raptor
2020 GT500
Posts: 6525 | From: Orlando FL/Redding CA | Registered: Mar 2002
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kingmoochr
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Member # 5834
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
Just throwing this in here, but for the price of a 2003/4 cobra motor you might be able to get a pretty decent dart blocked, 8.2 decked 331 or 347 combo going...just food for thought...
having a dart 347 built might cost the same as an entire cobra swap with trans, but add in the cost of swapping into a modular, and the fact it wont be able to smog, and it seems downright retarded.
Posts: 881 | Registered: Jul 2005
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingmoochr:
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
Just throwing this in here, but for the price of a 2003/4 cobra motor you might be able to get a pretty decent dart blocked, 8.2 decked 331 or 347 combo going...just food for thought...
having a dart 347 built might cost the same as an entire cobra swap with trans, but add in the cost of swapping into a modular, and the fact it wont be able to smog, and it seems downright retarded.
With cats and the rest of the emissions stuff on I don't see it as a problem ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) The only fabrication that I am aware of would be a 5.0 k-member(modded motor mounts or just get an aftermarket k-member) and the wiring. If they are going by the vin number of his GT for smogging then the likelihood of him passing smog would be about the same as if he had a 347. Cobra motor puts out way more emissions then a modular gt so you sort of end up in the same situation. I thought new cobra motors were in the $11k range (yes more then a dart 347 block)???? Not sure on the prices on the cobra motors..I could be wrong...unless they dropped prices?
[ January 09, 2008, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: CobramanPhil ]
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2013 Shelby GT500
2011 Porsche 911 TurboS/AWD
2014 GSXR750
2002 GSXR750 Track Beater Bike
2016 Explorer Unlimted
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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Adam5.0
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Member # 6995
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
quote:
Originally posted by kingmoochr:
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
Just throwing this in here, but for the price of a 2003/4 cobra motor you might be able to get a pretty decent dart blocked, 8.2 decked 331 or 347 combo going...just food for thought...
having a dart 347 built might cost the same as an entire cobra swap with trans, but add in the cost of swapping into a modular, and the fact it wont be able to smog, and it seems downright retarded.
With cats and the rest of the emissions stuff on I don't see it as a problem The only fabrication that I am aware of would be a 5.0 k-member and the wiring. If they are going by the vin number of his GT for smogging then the likelihood of him passing smog would be about the same as if he had a 347. Cobra motor puts out way more emissions then a modular gt so you sort of end up in the same situation. I thought new cobra motors were in the $11k range (yes more then a dart 347 block)???? Not sure on the prices on the cobra motors..I could be wrong...unless they dropped prices?
cant put an older motor in a newer car. 5.0 k member just dont bolt in.
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want something old and japanese
Posts: 1609 | From: Brentwood | Registered: Aug 2006
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
[/qb][/QUOTE]cant put an older motor in a newer car. 5.0 k member just dont bolt in. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Been there..done that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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2013 Shelby GT500
2011 Porsche 911 TurboS/AWD
2014 GSXR750
2002 GSXR750 Track Beater Bike
2016 Explorer Unlimted
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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kingmoochr
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Member # 5834
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posted
let me clarify. according to the california air resources board, you can NOT replace the motor in any vehicle with one produced before the vehicle and continue to be smog legal. is that better?
Posts: 881 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Blind
2.3L
CAFords OG
Member # 3052
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingmoochr:
let me clarify. according to the california air resources board, you can NOT replace the motor in any vehicle with one produced before the vehicle and continue to be smog legal. is that better?
unless you modify it so that motor is able to pass smog with all equipment the vehicle used stock.
it's either the motor or the car, whichever is newer, that you must smog it as.
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89 LX Notchback ex 4cyl, 14psi
02 Harley F150, 15psi
Posts: 8521 | From: Fairfield | Registered: Jul 2003
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Blind:
quote:
Originally posted by kingmoochr:
let me clarify. according to the california air resources board, you can NOT replace the motor in any vehicle with one produced before the vehicle and continue to be smog legal. is that better?
unless you modify it so that motor is able to pass smog with all equipment the vehicle used stock.
it's either the motor or the car, whichever is newer, that you must smog it as.
I have no claims on being an expert on what is smog legal or not. Wouldn't a dart block constitute a "new motor". If you wanted to get nitty and gritty about the whole thing the dart motor would actually be "newer" then a new cobra motor from ford. Does CARB specify that the design of the motor must be of a newer or different design (ie modular as compared to a pushrod motor) when replacing the motor in a car that came OEM with a modular motor? If not then I see lots and lots of loopholes with lots of gray areas between. Come on. You guys can't honestly tell me that with the kazillion modded cars on the road today(and yes swapped motors) that you are actually concerned that a properly equipped car (ie cats/egr/smog pump) as suggested above (dart block in a 96 and up gt/cobra) would have any major issues passing smog
I know this discussion has gone off on a tanget, but:
#1. I was only making a suggestion to Black Pearl
#2. I was trying to help
#3. I was trying to save him money while at the same time possibly giving him more potential to make more power then an OEM cobra motor.
#4. I have no desire to have a pissing contest over a dart motor versus a OEM cobra motor. I already know which one is better and better priced.
#5. I am not an expert on smog regulations..who is when the COLOR of your plug wires are not even approved
[ January 09, 2008, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: CobramanPhil ]
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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Blind
2.3L
CAFords OG
Member # 3052
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
quote:
Originally posted by Blind:
quote:
Originally posted by kingmoochr:
let me clarify. according to the california air resources board, you can NOT replace the motor in any vehicle with one produced before the vehicle and continue to be smog legal. is that better?
unless you modify it so that motor is able to pass smog with all equipment the vehicle used stock.
it's either the motor or the car, whichever is newer, that you must smog it as.
I have no claims on being an expert on what is smog legal or not. Wouldn't a dart block constitute a "new motor". If you wanted to get nitty and gritty about the whole thing the dart motor would actually be "newer" then a new cobra motor from ford. Does CARB specify that the design of the motor must be of a newer or different design (ie modular as compared to a pushrod motor) when replacing the motor in a car that came OEM with a modular motor? If not then I see lots and lots of loopholes with lots of gray areas between. Come on. You guys can't honestly tell me that with the kazillion modded cars on the road today(and yes swapped motors) that you are actually concerned that a properly equipped car (ie cats/egr/smog pump) as suggested above (dart block in a 96 and up gt/cobra) would have any major issues passing smog
I know this discussion has gone off on a tanget, but:
#1. I was only making a suggestion to Black Pearl
#2. I was trying to help
#3. I was trying to save him money while at the same time possibly giving him more potential to make more power then an OEM cobra motor.
#4. I have no desire to have a pissing contest over a dart motor versus a OEM cobra motor. I already know which one is better and better priced.
#5. I am not an expert on smog regulations..who is when the COLOR of your plug wires are not even approved
Hows that for being clear?
his car was never offered with a pushrod motor, so you would be required to pass smog as what the car came with, it's pretty simple.
dart block being newer or not, it's based on a design not used in a mustang since 1995, so even with all CARB legal heads/intake/exhaust parts, it's only CARB legal in a vehicle up to the last year it was used, which would be an explorer (1999?) iirc. So in that case the car is newer, and he'd have to meet smog requirements of his car, which is still not a big deal except for the visual aspect of smog, which is a grey area for any car.
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89 LX Notchback ex 4cyl, 14psi
02 Harley F150, 15psi
Posts: 8521 | From: Fairfield | Registered: Jul 2003
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92stangLX
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Member # 3252
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posted
500rwhp out of a two valve (even with boost) is gonna be tough. I would swap an moddified 03/04 cobra motor in before trying to swap a 5.0.
Another option is to get built two valve motor wiht ported heads, cams, and a turbo.
Either way it ain't gonna be cheap so start saving your pennies
Posts: 5302 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Sep 2003
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 92stangLX:
500rwhp out of a two valve (even with boost) is gonna be tough. I would swap an moddified 03/04 cobra motor in before trying to swap a 5.0.
Another option is to get built two valve motor wiht ported heads, cams, and a turbo.
Either way it ain't gonna be cheap so start saving your pennies
I totally agree with you. I'd say run big fuel and a turbo. Get a half decent tune and it should last for at least a while (depending on how he drives it).
I am not sure if there is a turbo kit that is smog (CA)legal though ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Getting passed the sniffer shouldn't be a problem if he has his smog stuff on, but that shiny turbo probably does not have an exemption serial number on it (so he might not make it past the visual) and the smog guys in my area do check for this (eg. They wouldn't pass you if you had anything past a s or t trim vortech).
[ January 09, 2008, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: CobramanPhil ]
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2013 Shelby GT500
2011 Porsche 911 TurboS/AWD
2014 GSXR750
2002 GSXR750 Track Beater Bike
2016 Explorer Unlimted
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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TOPnotch
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Member # 1340
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posted
stock 2v bottom ends = junk If you mod that motor to the point where it makes mid 400 hp even with a good tune your on borrowed time. Piston/rod failure is going to happen. 4v engine is the way to go. By the time you build that 2v with good rotating assembly, good heads, and cams to make the power you want, you will be right around the price of a 03-04 cobra engnie probably more. And as for a 5.0 swap why go backwards with technology? Mod motors are the future with fords!!! Just my 2 cents?
[ January 10, 2008, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: TOPnotch ]
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The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgoten!!!
1QWKCHP
1QWKDRP
Posts: 2255 | From: Hayward | Registered: May 2002
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CobramanPhil
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Member # 2170
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TOPnotch:
stock 2v bottom ends = junk If you mod that motor to the point where it makes mid 400 hp even with a good tune your on borrowed time. Piston/rod failure is going to happen. 4v engine is the way to go. By the time you build that 2v with good rotating assembly, good heads, and cams to make the power you want, you will be right around the price of a 03-04 cobra engnie probably more. And as for a 5.0 swap why go backwards with technology? Mod motors are the future with fords!!! Just my 2 cents?
Dart Pushrod motor = Oldie, but goodie ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ January 10, 2008, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: CobramanPhil ]
Posts: 1016 | From: California, Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thirteen Twenty
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Member # 7961
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
quote:
Originally posted by 92stangLX:
500rwhp out of a two valve (even with boost) is gonna be tough. I would swap an moddified 03/04 cobra motor in before trying to swap a 5.0.
Another option is to get built two valve motor wiht ported heads, cams, and a turbo.
Either way it ain't gonna be cheap so start saving your pennies
I totally agree with you. I'd say run big fuel and a turbo. Get a half decent tune and it should last for at least a while (depending on how he drives it).
I am not sure if there is a turbo kit that is smog (CA)legal though Getting passed the sniffer shouldn't be a problem if he has his smog stuff on, but that shiny turbo probably does not have an exemption serial number on it (so he might not make it past the visual) and the smog guys in my area do check for this (eg. They wouldn't pass you if you had anything past a s or t trim vortech).
you're area? I know a few smog places in town that are cool as long as it passes the sniffer. a couple of ways around this problem are to attach a legal tag to a non legal supercharger or look at Squires remote mount turbo. In Cali you can make any mod after the cats and be legal, that's why there are so many cat back systems out there because they don't have to pass emissions tests. Squires mounts there turbo's where the muffler's would normally be, it's an iffy subject though. I have a friend doing this to his hemi
Posts: 647 | From: union city | Registered: Oct 2007
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98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX'
Uncle Frank
Member # 895
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posted
I don't think you will have a problem what so ever with that block ever! It is your rotating assembly that is garbage. Like somebody else said by the time you make your 2 valve make decent power you might have well switched to a 4 valve set-up. It's gona be costly one way or the other. Your set-up is gona varie just on how you want your 500hp. You want 500 on the jug, SC or turbo? I know you said you don't have a ton of money to spend on it. I say if it aint broke don't mess with it till you have the money to throw at it or save and get yourself a cobra.
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AKA Franky Freaking 5 liter
Advanced Engine Development
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
Engine building
916*275*8212
88 4runner on 42's
Posts: 4206 | From: Folsom | Registered: Feb 2002
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98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX'
Uncle Frank
Member # 895
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posted
DP
[ January 11, 2008, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: 98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX' ]
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AKA Franky Freaking 5 liter
Advanced Engine Development
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
Engine building
916*275*8212
88 4runner on 42's
Posts: 4206 | From: Folsom | Registered: Feb 2002
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98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX'
Uncle Frank
Member # 895
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posted
DP
[ January 11, 2008, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: 98slowhoe 'FIFTYLX' ]
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AKA Franky Freaking 5 liter
Advanced Engine Development
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
Engine building
916*275*8212
88 4runner on 42's
Posts: 4206 | From: Folsom | Registered: Feb 2002
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MAXPSI
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Member # 8093
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thirteen Twenty:
quote:
Originally posted by CobramanPhil:
quote:
Originally posted by 92stangLX:
500rwhp out of a two valve (even with boost) is gonna be tough. I would swap an moddified 03/04 cobra motor in before trying to swap a 5.0.
Another option is to get built two valve motor wiht ported heads, cams, and a turbo.
Either way it ain't gonna be cheap so start saving your pennies
I totally agree with you. I'd say run big fuel and a turbo. Get a half decent tune and it should last for at least a while (depending on how he drives it).
I am not sure if there is a turbo kit that is smog (CA)legal though Getting passed the sniffer shouldn't be a problem if he has his smog stuff on, but that shiny turbo probably does not have an exemption serial number on it (so he might not make it past the visual) and the smog guys in my area do check for this (eg. They wouldn't pass you if you had anything past a s or t trim vortech).
you're area? I know a few smog places in town that are cool as long as it passes the sniffer. a couple of ways around this problem are to attach a legal tag to a non legal supercharger or look at Squires remote mount turbo. In Cali you can make any mod after the cats and be legal, that's why there are so many cat back systems out there because they don't have to pass emissions tests. Squires mounts there turbo's where the muffler's would normally be, it's an iffy subject though. I have a friend doing this to his hemi
This is true!! This is one of the reason I choose the STS turbos. I'm still waiting for my CARB # but I can make big power and stay CARB legal. Take a look at their website. I did not see a specific kit for your car so you would have to shop around.
Good luck.
STS Turbos
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quote:
Just your average turbo'd Mustang 530 rwhp 550 rwtq
Posts: 120 | From: Chico, CA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Lemonade
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Member # 3692
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Black Pearl:
I want to get as much HP as I can out of the stock engine.
Keep in mind i'm not super rich and have limited access to a shop. Thanks
Anyone pay attention to these minor details? Big, reliable HP usually = big $. Just an observation.
Lems
Posts: 293 | From: San Ramon | Registered: Oct 2003
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Thirteen Twenty
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Member # 7961
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lemonade:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Pearl:
I want to get as much HP as I can out of the stock engine.
Keep in mind i'm not super rich and have limited access to a shop. Thanks
Anyone pay attention to these minor details? Big, reliable HP usually = big $. Just an observation.
Lems
best way to get reliable hp n/a is big cubes, a 400+ stroker could make 1 hp per cu. in. and be reliable as hell. Now if you want a stock engine then you need to look at the whole package, lighten the car up, and get some more gear in it. I dropped 1/2sec. quarter by going from 3.27's to 4.10's in my 01 gt and didn't touch the engine.
Posts: 647 | From: union city | Registered: Oct 2007
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