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Author
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Topic: 302 / NOVI 1000 Stock Block Go Boom?
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
 
 
Hey guys...been a while since I posted. I wanted to get some opinions on my combo.
I have a BONE stock 1989 302 with 80,000 original miles in my '88 Notch.
I just picked up a pair of GT40Y heads, an E303 cam, an Edelbrock RPM II manifold, and a NOVI 1000 supercharger with a power pipe/pulleys for 10 psi.
My question is, should I put all of this stuff together on my 80,000 mile short block (that runs like a champ) or should I keep starring at this pile of cool new parts and build up a new bottom end with an AFTERMARKET block? Should I build up my 80,000 mile STOCK block with new internals? I've been saving for about 5 years to be able to afford to build this car, and don't want all of my hard work to go BOOM. From everything I've read, with a really good tune I can expect 450 at the wheels with 10 psi. Does that sound about right? Is that block splitting territory?
Also, I haven't purchased injectors yet as I don't know where to start. I was thinking that 42 lb injectors would be cool, and figured that the 02 sensors would lean them out if they're too big, but I am open to input if anybody can make a recommendation. I have an Aeromotive Fuel System with a 1/2" feed line and an A1000 pump, so fuel system is not a concern.
Thanks for the input!!!
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Some day I'll finish it.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Fostang
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Member # 3752
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posted
Unless you had a shitty ass tune or a weaker than normal block I don't see any problem comming from you putting it all on your 80K short block.
With that combo there is no need for an aftermarket block. my guess it'll but about 380-425rwhp. Throw a 255 hi pressure intank and the 42's with an LMAF and your good to go.
You don't really need that big of an intake but it's not going to hurt you as bad as if you would have stayed N/A because the blower is going to speed up the runner velocity.
If your going to be running the car on the street as DD I would stay far away from the A1000 but if you must at least get a speed controler otherwise the pump is going to last a very short amount of time.
[ December 18, 2007, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Fostang ]
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67' Fastback TT 408
67' Camaro Lsx
64' Corvette Fuelie
57' Chevy Bel Air Lsx
68’ Pony Convertible
66’ Pony Coupe
Posts: 3012 | From: Stockton/Danville | Registered: Nov 2003
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Thirteen Twenty
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Member # 7961
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posted
I think block splitting territory is around 600 at the crank.
Posts: 647 | From: union city | Registered: Oct 2007
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
There are so many factors when worrying about splitting your block.
I can tell you that this largest factor is all in your TUNE.
Get this right and stock blocks seem to handle a decent amount of low rpm horsepower. I put a link at the bottom that can enlighten you some.
I can tell you what I am doing, maybe that will help.
Iam building my chassis, suspension, fuel system and power adder (single turbo) all on a stock longblock.
Once I have everything dialed in (going to use mega squirt) and get my chassis tuned and the stock motor making good power (ie turbogt)
THEN I will put in the R blocked, aluminum headed, custom cammed, syder intaked stroker motor and turn up the boost and the tune.
It is something to consider.
here is the link
http://www.theturboforums.com/stockblock.php
[ December 18, 2007, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: turbo50 ]
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fostang:
Throw a 255 hi pressure intank and the 42's with an LMAF and your good to go.
What is a LMAF?
quote:
Originally posted by Fostang:
If your going to be running the car on the street as DD I would stay far away from the A1000 but if you must at least get a speed controler otherwise the pump is going to last a very short amount of time.
I didn't think you could go overkill on a fuel system. I hadn't seen the speed controllers before either. Can you tell me more about the A1000 and why it's a bad choice for my combo, as well as maybe how the speed controller will help. For what it's worth, the car will only get driven a couple of times a week.
Thanks again for all the good input.
[ December 18, 2007, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Casey90GT ]
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Some day I'll finish it.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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95gts
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Member # 8052
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posted
i'm guessing a LMAF is a 90mm lightning mass air meter
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supercharged 1995 gts, 2015 gt
Posts: 16 | From: pittsburg, ca | Registered: Nov 2007
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
There are so many factors when worrying about splitting your block.
I can tell you that this largest factor is all in your TUNE.
Get this right and stock blocks seem to handle a decent amount of low rpm horsepower.
I read your link and it was very insightful. It seems like the main girdles were pretty much scoffed at, but the only one that didn't list a girdle happened to be a 420hp motor and it cracked. What is the consensus? Are the girdles a necessary crutch when making 450 at the wheels?
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Some day I'll finish it.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 95gts:
i'm guessing a LMAF is a 90mm lightning mass air meter
makes sense
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Some day I'll finish it.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Casey90GT:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
There are so many factors when worrying about splitting your block.
I can tell you that this largest factor is all in your TUNE.
Get this right and stock blocks seem to handle a decent amount of low rpm horsepower.
I read your link and it was very insightful. It seems like the main girdles were pretty much scoffed at, but the only one that didn't list a girdle happened to be a 420hp motor and it cracked. What is the consensus? Are the girdles a necessary crutch when making 450 at the wheels?
main girdles....
I think that main caps walking is something that tends to happen when you run high rpms. Also Im sure a trans am car or scca car etc would experience engine braking and more abuse with longer duration high rpm runs. Drag cars arent going to see alot of reverse torque, typically.
I can tell you and have pics (somewhere) of a stock block I destroyed and the DSS main girdle is sitting there looking stupid, with the end of it mangled (cylinders #1 and 5).
It split from the main web to cam journals.
My two cents is put the money toward an aftermarket block and put a girdle on the aftermarket block if you are worried about the main caps walking. Atleast with an aftermarket block there is some meat on it (cam journal to crank journals and main webbing). I think stock blocks fracture at or before the point of the main caps walking, but then again I am no pro engine builder and have only built about 20 v-8 engines so I am not that well versed.
I know they key to stock block longevitiy is lower RPM and a very precise tune.
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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SmokinLX
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Member # 1684
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posted
There are no gaurantee's with any engine IMO. With what You have planned You should be well within the limit's of Your block. You need to get a certain amount of experience "unless You have alot of cash find an experienced engine builder that know's what work's and what does'nt" and knoledge which can only be had with owning a high horsepower car and driving it for a while. Hell a well built aftermarket shortblock will run You 6-8000 buck's and shit can still go wrong. You are probably better off getting the experience with Your stockblock and ride it out till it goes. As for Your combo You have been waiting long enough just put it together with the stock cam for a while and enjoy it & I have had the E cam behind a charged car and NA car and it is'nt worth the hassle for the amount of power You will gain vs the amount of power You will add plus for a DD the stock cam will be more enjoyable! I would purchase the 50 pound inj. and mass air meter that Lee has posted in the ford sale section here and You will have a stout fuel system, as mentioned before that pump You have is overkill for this combo so I would go with the trusty old walboro 255 lph pump that summit sell's for around 160 buck's and save that pump for when You do the aftermarket block ect.... Like You said You don't want to put it together only to have it crack the block after a few month's so there is no reason to put that E cam in and do all the work that that entail's only to complicate thing's, You are already doing head's and supercharger install which can be hard enough to diagnose if a problem arises on starting the car and getting it running rite so just enjoy a solid idle and all the newfound power You will get from the head's and charger. Are You installing all the part's and have You done a head or supercharger install baefore? Hope all goes well for You ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif) .
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Dont claim power if ya cant mile per hour. 10 second AOD
Posts: 4388 | From: East Bay | Registered: Aug 2002
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
[/QUOTE]I read your link and it was very insightful. It seems like the main girdles were pretty much scoffed at[/QB][/QUOTE]
If you really read up on it you will see that forged pistons are also scoffed at over hypers IN A STOCK block.
Looks like people kill stock blocks before hyper pistons.
This may be the case on a perfect tune (good for those guys) but I have had better luck with forged pistons being more forgiving over hypers when it comes to stock shortblocks. God knows I have hurt enough of them with my old bottle baby.
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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SmokinLX
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Member # 1684
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posted
[/qb][/QUOTE]I didn't think you could go overkill on a fuel system. I hadn't seen the speed controllers before either. Can you tell me more about the A1000 and why it's a bad choice for my combo [/QB][/QUOTE]
The A 1000 has had reliabilty problem's espically if You plan on putting some street miles on. It is true that that pump will flow way more than You need, but a walbro 255 will do the job and be reliable. Honestly I don't have any personal experience with the A 1000 but have read many thread's with people complaining of them failing with very little use on them.
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Dont claim power if ya cant mile per hour. 10 second AOD
Posts: 4388 | From: East Bay | Registered: Aug 2002
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Fostang
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Member # 3752
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posted
The combo sounds like something you want to drive for a while and enjoy it so keep the stock fuel lines and as mentioned before 255 pump and just get some 94-95 fuel rails.
42's will be more than enough for what you have. A 90 mm lightning mass air is cheap and will support up to about 450 rwhp which your combo on a good day will peak out at. You can buy a 2400 sct $200 or so later and sell the LMAF that you can pick up for 50-75 bucks later.
My lx has a 2030 cam which is the same as the E edelbrock heads gt40 with box cartech upper 70 mm tb 42's sct 2400 mass air STOCK rails and lines with a single 255 intank and I have seen 15 psi at 6000k without going lean. However I only turn it to about 5400 rpm 12psi with 91octane.
The car makes good power and I have logged 10K miles on it in the past 6 months without any
issues.
It's really up to you if you want to use the cam. You'd already have to take half the motor apart for the heads how much harder would it be to take out your radiator shroud fan and timing cover.
Just do it and never look back.
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67' Fastback TT 408
67' Camaro Lsx
64' Corvette Fuelie
57' Chevy Bel Air Lsx
68’ Pony Convertible
66’ Pony Coupe
Posts: 3012 | From: Stockton/Danville | Registered: Nov 2003
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fostang:
You can buy a 2400 sct $200 or so later and sell the LMAF that you can pick up for 50-75 bucks later.
What is the SCT 2400?
Anybody want to buy an Aeromotive Fuel System?
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Some day I'll finish it.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fostang:
42's will be more than enough for what you have. A 90 mm lightning mass air is cheap and will support up to about 450 rwhp which your combo on a good day will peak out at. You can buy a 2400 sct $200 or so later and sell the LMAF that you can pick up for 50-75 bucks later.
I've been reading a lot lately about FMU's and aftermarket MAF's and all sorts of other does and don't of supercharging.
If I go with a 255lph in tank, a LMAF, and 42's should I still run the FMU, or should I install it all, less the FMU and take it to get it tuned? If I don't get it tuned do I need to do any sort of re-calibration to run the LMAF and 42's?
On another note, I got the blower today from Summit. Turns out it is the new NOVI-1220 and not the NOVI-1000 that Summit had it listed as. Anybody heard any good/bad about using this *NEW* blower in the 10 psi range. Right now it is pullied for 6 psi, but from what I've read a Vortech Renegade 8" pulley and power pipe will take it to the 10 psi that I am after, and all for less than $2,000.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fostang:
42's will be more than enough for what you have. A 90 mm lightning mass air is cheap and will support up to about 450 rwhp which your combo on a good day will peak out at. You can buy a 2400 sct $200 or so later and sell the LMAF that you can pick up for 50-75 bucks later.
I've been reading a lot lately about FMU's and aftermarket MAF's and all sorts of other does and don't of supercharging.
If I go with a 255lph in tank, a LMAF, and 42's should I still run the FMU, or should I install it all, less the FMU and take it to get it tuned? If I don't get it tuned do I need to do any sort of re-calibration to run the LMAF and 42's?
On another note, I got the blower today from Summit. Turns out it is the new NOVI-1220 and not the NOVI-1000 that Summit had it listed as. Anybody heard any good/bad about using this *NEW* blower in the 10 psi range. Right now it is pullied for 6 psi, but from what I've read a Vortech Renegade 8" pulley and power pipe will take it to the 10 psi that I am after, and all for less than $2,000.
Thanks Again for All the Input Guys!!!
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
Dont FMU it. Go with a custom tune or try mega squirt or some other stand alone.
Also turbomustangs has a plethora of information and tons of knowledgeable folks, not that there arent any on here, just that turbomustangs tends not to be as localized as cafords.
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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92stangLX
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Member # 3252
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posted
Haven't read all the responses but..
You "should" be ok with the 80k stock bottom end as long as it is in good condition and you have a good tune.
However, if you are going to the trouble of pulling everything apart I would also pull the motor and have it freshened up. That way you know you are good to go. Consider upgrading to forged pistons while you are at it.
Don't use an FMU. Just have someone tune your car with the stock computer and an SCT piggyback chip.
Make sure you have enough fuel. 42lb injectors, 255 intake pump, and an inline pump will be good.
I would use a SCT MAF as you will probably peg the lightning MAF if you exceed 400rwhp (or is it 450?). If you use a SCT MAF you won't be able to start the car without a SCT chip setup for that meter. No big deal, but you should be aware of that.
Good luck
Posts: 5302 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Sep 2003
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Thirteen Twenty
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Member # 7961
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I read your link and it was very insightful. It seems like the main girdles were pretty much scoffed at[/QUOTE]
If you really read up on it you will see that forged pistons are also scoffed at over hypers IN A STOCK block.
Looks like people kill stock blocks before hyper pistons.
one of the reasons for diff pistons is their expansion rate, with diff materials you could build closer tolerences for a tighter seal on n/a engine, but for boost or juice I'd go forged.
Posts: 647 | From: union city | Registered: Oct 2007
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turbo50
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Member # 6700
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thirteen Twenty:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
I read your link and it was very insightful. It seems like the main girdles were pretty much scoffed at
If you really read up on it you will see that forged pistons are also scoffed at over hypers IN A STOCK block.
Looks like people kill stock blocks before hyper pistons.
one of the reasons for diff pistons is their expansion rate, with diff materials you could build closer tolerences for a tighter seal on n/a engine, but for boost or juice I'd go forged. [/QUOTE]
If you are running a stock block 302 then hyper pistons are fine. Forged pistons are over kill because it is a fact that you will kill the block before hurting those pistons, on a good tune.
Now if you step up to an aftmermarket block then forged pistons all the way.
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.........when was the last time YOU built something with YOUR own hands?
I offer quality sidework at reasonable prices. PM ME
Posts: 7606 | From: Discovery Bay, California | Registered: Apr 2006
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Fostang
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Member # 3752
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posted
Either maf the sct or the lmaf will require a tune especially with the 42's.
Now you can always get a tweecer.
www.tweecer.com
and never have to pay a tuner for tuning purposes. Just don't forget a wide band 02 to go with it for better fine tuning.
Yes, it's a big learning curve but once you've mastered the basics you'll be good to go.
I can set you up with a quick tune for your set up if you do get a tweecer.
As a matter of fact I think I may have an LMAF for you you'll need a plug for it but ford has those.
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67' Fastback TT 408
67' Camaro Lsx
64' Corvette Fuelie
57' Chevy Bel Air Lsx
68’ Pony Convertible
66’ Pony Coupe
Posts: 3012 | From: Stockton/Danville | Registered: Nov 2003
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Casey90GT
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Member # 6175
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fostang:
Either maf the sct or the lmaf will require a tune especially with the 42's.
Now you can always get a tweecer.
www.tweecer.com
and never have to pay a tuner for tuning purposes. Just don't forget a wide band 02 to go with it for better fine tuning.
Yes, it's a big learning curve but once you've mastered the basics you'll be good to go.
I can set you up with a quick tune for your set up if you do get a tweecer.
As a matter of fact I think I may have an LMAF for you you'll need a plug for it but ford has those.
Nice!!! Now is the Tweecer the way to go compared to other tuning devices like the PMS, AEM, etc. Which one will be best suited to the biennial back to stock ritual?
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Some day I'll finish it.
Posts: 1064 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Fostang
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Member # 3752
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posted
Well thats going to depend on you.
I have had great success-(Borat voice)LOL
with the Tweecer and feel comfortable using it. PMS does not allow you to mess with the transfer functions of the Mass air which is where real tunning comes into play.
AEM I have never used but it's more expensive than buying a tweecer and PMS together at that point I'd rather just use a FAST system.
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67' Fastback TT 408
67' Camaro Lsx
64' Corvette Fuelie
57' Chevy Bel Air Lsx
68’ Pony Convertible
66’ Pony Coupe
Posts: 3012 | From: Stockton/Danville | Registered: Nov 2003
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