This is topic NEW COMBO GUESS #S in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by Don (Member # 938) on :
 
I am now going to be switching to AFR185s with an X303 cam in my 10.5 to 1 347.
So I figured I would let people try to guess my numbers before I make it to the track in about a month.
Cam will be instaled by 93Cobra, and he will also be helping coatch me with the rest of my motor. Thanks a million man for all your help.
Here is the total combo
347 10.5 to 1
X303
AFR185 1.6 rockers
RPM intake 75mm TB 76mm C&L
1 3/4 longtubes
3 inch exhuast dumped at muffler
Art Car AOD MVB 3000 converter
3.73 gears and 26 10.5 ET streets
3500lbs with driver
These topics are so fun....
 

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Posted by Glenn (Member # 520) on :
 
375RWHP
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Why not run a split duration cam from someone like comp cams. You'll see a bunch more power than with the X cam. Ford cams are not all that great for a modified motor. Something with a 232/242 duration for this set up. Just food for thought
 

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Posted by Don (Member # 938) on :
 
X303 and RPM will be on the motor untill next Jan.
Then I will switch to a custom and a victor 5.0
Gota pass somg next year and don't want to pull it apart untill after that.
 

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Posted by ONEQKFIVE0 (Member # 1591) on :
 
11.5 to low 11's about 115 to 118 mph 1/4
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
358 rwhp.

EDIT: Didn't noticed AOD: 333 rwhp.

[ January 30, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
351rwhp
 

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Posted by 1SLOWLX (Member # 558) on :
 
346rwhp
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
since when is the X303 a smog cam LOL. you could probably pass with your custom and 4 good cats If they were good ones and you don't keep them on there two long(they will melt)
Besides that I bet your 347 rips I would guess 350 plus also. Plus meaning anywere up to very high 300's
 

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Posted by DropTopFox (Member # 1689) on :
 
330
 

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Posted by Don (Member # 938) on :
 
X303 instaled correctly in a 347 will pass smog.

If car goes 11.5 or better then I will not change anything, but if its in the low 12s to high 11s I will.
I also have a single fogger NX kit in the car. I would like to run a 10.99 on the bottle, so the car needs to run 11.5 or better on the motor.
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
I saw a car just like this with about the same mods run into the 11's. It was a fox body 5-speed 342 ci stroker X cam afr 185's...light weight. Good rear suspension bite and some DOT drag radials. If your auto is tuned well you should be able to make it into the 11's no sweat.
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Also if you worried about running a different cam because of smog I wouldn't. Once they open your hood and see those long tubes it'll fail for sure unless you get lucky and you know the smog guy.
 

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Posted by FasterDamnit (Member # 442) on :
 
If it doesn't run 11's w/ traction then something is seriuosly wrong.
 

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Posted by Don (Member # 938) on :
 
Headers are much easier swap then a cam. Plus I do have freinds too.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
330-350RWHP
Enough to squeeze out an 11 & pass the sniffer.
Remember to Port your headers!
 

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Posted by Yellow94GT (Member # 431) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
330-350RWHP
Enough to squeeze out an 11 & pass the sniffer.
Remember to Port your headers!

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quote:

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Originally posted by mtbaughs:
Why not run a split duration cam from someone like comp cams. You'll see a bunch more power than with the X cam. Ford cams are not all that great for a modified motor. Something with a 232/242 duration for this set up. Just food for thought

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i agree. u will have much better numbers with the split cam. it helps play for the difference in sizes of the valves. its the way to go!
 

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Posted by Camara90 (Member # 134) on :
 
man i put down 358 with an x-cam, afr 165,s untouched just milled ten thousandths, 1.6rr, 1 5/8 inch headers, 2 1/2 inch exh, 73mm c&L, mac cold air, 70mm tb, and a holley intake. Car ran 12.3 at 114.8 raceweight around 3450, on 17x9 cobras with nittos. 60 foot was a low 1.8.

Just thought i would let you know.
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
Don I meant the X303 cam is not a street legal cam in the first place no EO number. A custom cam should pass just as well with all the smog stuff. The correct way meaning in the engine
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Custom's don't carry EO #'s either. No custom does.
But grind it right & it'll pass the sniffer. As will the X, B, &F which also don't carry an EO #.
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
Dah LOL that has been my entire point why bother wondering if a x cam will pass smog when it is illegal in the first place. If you are going run a illegal cam start out with the one you want. The cats will hopefully burn everything up.
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Theres plenty of split duration cams available without needing a custom grind. Some of them are even carb legal. With the X-cam you are holding the intake and exhaust valves open the same amount of time...!? Sure the X cam can put up some good numbers but why sell yourself short and not get better numbers. It's all in understanding the way the common windsor works. I think people tend to use combinations that they've seen on everyone elses cars. It's the guys that actually gain the understanding of how and what a motor needs that are out there constantly winning races.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
This particular AFR combo will run best with a single pattern camshaft...if not a slightly reverse-split pattern.

The X is the best bang-for-the-buck smogable cam you can get. At $100, it sure does beat a smogable custom at $325 that'll make a mear 10-15RW more.

If you're gonna go custom make SURE the combo is done before buying the cam. A custom for an RPM intake will not be the same as one for a Victor intake. The same is true if the exhaust is also being changed.
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
The X is the best bang-for-the-buck smogable cam you can get. At $100, it sure does beat a smogable custom at $325 that'll make a mear 10-15RW more.

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If you can gain an extra 10-15rwhp from spending an extra $225 that sounds like a GREAT deal to me. I don't know of many other mods you can do for $225 that will add that much HP.

[ February 01, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Jeff S ]
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Yeah I bought my split duration cam off ebay for $150. Why cheap out on basically the brain of the motor? In my opinion this is where the money should be spent not saved. You guys keep mentioning needing the cam to be custom ground. If you shop around you can find just about any combination already being made. Also another helpful resource. Desktop dyno's cam iterator program. People say that you can't trust a computers calculations in the real world. Think again. Every car I've seen run through the desktop dyno program has been within a few horsepower of what I've seen on the actual dyno. They key is just knowing how to enter in all the info in the correct fields.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Good luck finding an OTS reverse-split cam! LOL

AFR headed combo's need to limit he amount of exhaust flow or they'll get reversion. This kills low-end power.
Aside from that, you can only get so much overlap in a cam before it won't pass the sniffer. This # in CA is typically 1 degree of overlap at .050 lift. The X303 is 1 degree shy of this 'limit'. Behond that power is gained from proper valve timing & ramp-rate. The X, when installed correctly, has some pretty good timing events for certain setups (this being one of them). The ramp-rate on the X is not an XE lobe, but it's certainly FAR better then an E303 & most other off-shelf smogable cams like the TFS 1. Slap on some 1.7 rockers on the X & now the valve action at he heads rivals some of the XE line.

I'll say it again, the X303 is the best bang-for-the-buck smogable camshaft....especially for this combination.

Oh...& I have a few combos that Desktop dyno won't know what to do with! LOL There is nothing in those programs that compensates correctly for ramp-rate. From stock to solid roller there is a whole host of different lobes profiles that perform drastically different given the same size at .006. Simply too many variables & desktop dyno does not have enough inputs to predict all of them accurately.
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
how many smogs have you done with a X cam what are the numbers? How about a trickflow stage 2 will it pass smog? Do you have any actual numbers for these?
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
What affects smogability CAM wise?
Low-speed misss-fires (lope) & overlap.
The X303 has no more overlap & less low-speed miss-fires then the E303. If the E passes, the X, B, & F will too.

Yes, people have passed with the TFS 2. Wow. It has the same overlap as the XE274HR which also passes on occasion. The more overlap a cam has the less likely it is to pass the sniffer. Overlap is the only aspect of a camshaft profile that effects emissions.

[ February 01, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Haha you didn't want him to see your "smart ass" comment huh LoL
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
hmmm I just wanted some numbers that is it. Duration has no effect on idle quality? You can hold the intake valve open as long as you want and it won't effect the emmisions of a vehical? overlap is not the only aspect of a cam that effects emmisions. I have seen stock cams that wont pass with out cats. A little touchy these day's? I would have to believe that smart ass smog techs that have done thousands of smogs on different cars might have a clue on what might pass a smog test and what you can get away with on a sniffer test and what timming and fuel mixture might have to do with it even with different cams. JMO btw I am not a smog tech any more
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
listen 93 pony knows everything about cars and you dont. Like don at motor machine said " MR know it all (shaun) knows everything, just ask he will tell you"

[ February 01, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: jmcclesk ]
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
No, holding the intake valve open another 60 degrees would not affect emissions. Opening the exhaust valve 60 degrees early would also not affect emissions. Drivability, yes. Idle quality, definately. But not emissions. Hold the exhasut open longer, or open the intake valve sooner & you're increasing overlap....which affects emissions.

True, there is a LOT more in passing emissions then a cam & cats. Assuming all else is good (not neccessarily perfect), the typical 5.0 can have a cam with 1 degree of overlap at .050 & pass with a good set of cats.
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
so actual running compression has no effect on a smog test? Buy holding a intake valve open longer it will effect compression which will effect NOX which is tested these days. That is just one example.

[ February 01, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Good 3-way cats should knock down NOX enough....just like when you say the TFS 2 will pass...good cats should knock down the emissions enough to pass. Hell, I've even heard of guys passing without cats at all. But that doesn't mean I'm going to try it, or tell everybody else to do it just because someone else passed with it.

To be safe I go by overlap at .050. Any cam with this much overlap or less WILL pass the sniffer. You won't find a cam with a profile of 240+ degrees of duration at .050 & LSA's of 120+ in a streetcar.....so the argument is pointless. Although, if you did find a 240/240 120LSA camshaft it too would pass emissions!
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
what about having enough compression to properly burn your mixture? If you increase the fill of a cyl, close the intake to late you won't achive a clean burn in your cyl. There is a certain amount of cyl pressure needed to achieve proper burning of the mixture.
 

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