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Author
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Topic: Windage Trays?
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CustomFastbackCA
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Member # 1369
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posted
 
 
Do they work or are they neutral or even a hindrance? Getting a Canton deep sump and wanted to know, thanks.
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www.CustomFastbackCA.com
1995 Dinan M3 Avus Blue Metallic
1967 GT Mustang Fastback (Eleanor)
Ask questions if you have'em, anyone who thinks they're too cool, know's it all, or doesn't want to look stupid has more problems than you.
Posts: 346 | From: Santa Clara | Registered: Jun 2002
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
They work at high RPMs.
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Same reason people Knife edge the crank.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Same reason people Knife edge the crank.
Are you sure about that shawn??....Isnt knife edging the crank only to reduce friction and keep oil away from the crank??.. Doesnt an oil windage tray keep oil around to help with extra insurance for the main bearings?(correct me if im wrong)I want to learn! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ January 16, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Black94 5.0 ]
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
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posted
the tray just keeps the oil in the bottom of the pan from splashing up on the crank. with a hydraulic cam i dont really see the point in it but other than money, there is no negative to buying one.
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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season'd 88
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Member # 169
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by CustomFastbackCA:
Do they work or are they neutral or even a hindrance? Getting a Canton deep sump and wanted to know, thanks.
imo, if your springing for the pan and pickup you might as well get the windage tray also. mine took some very minor bending to clear the stroker crank.
Posts: 1383 | Registered: Feb 2001
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shadow50
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Member # 2265
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posted
I picked up one for my engine build.
I don't know if it is a help or hinderance.
But it's in there now.
It required a bit of massaging to get it to fit also, Then the damn mount for the oil pump broke.
That really sucked!
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84 5.0 vertible balanced . E303 cam,MSD Dist, BBK Shorties,
BBK cold air intake, Flowmaster Exhaust, 89 Saleen body kit, T-5 swap 92 EFI conversion.
Posts: 44 | From: Pleasant Hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Black94 5.0:
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Same reason people Knife edge the crank.
Are you sure about that shawn??....Isnt knife edging the crank only to reduce friction and keep oil away from the crank??.. Doesnt an oil windage tray keep oil around to help with extra insurance for the main bearings?(correct me if im wrong)I want to learn!
The crank froths up the oil into an oil/air foamy mixture. This is what lubricates the cylinder walls actually. Too much will cause a good amount of drag on the crank. The windage tray will control the oil, preventing excessive foaming. Knife edging will cut through the faom.... Both are done to reduce drag on the crank.
I, on the other hand, created a vacuum in my crankcase, which in effect reduces the foam. By reducing the amount of air available in the crankcase, I reduced the amount of oil foam. Certain types of oils are foaming resistant. Amsoil for instance resists foaming. A good thing to have with a supercharger or turbo. The oil gets frothed up in the blower assemblies, then drains back into the pan. Foamy oil drains MUCH slower then straight oil.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
Hey shawn is that vacuum in your crankcase called a PCV valve by chance?..If so I have one too .....
Oh by the way(I'm gonna piss you off when I say this)I dont like Amsoil!...I'm sure its great oil, but if you were a quart low at the Track and needed some, Where would you get it?.. I dont know anywhere that carries that stuff!! ..
I run Castrol oil(Track tested by John Force)and is available at all part stores..
[ January 17, 2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Black94 5.0 ]
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
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posted
how did you create a vacuum in your crank case?
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Yes, I used the stock PCV valve.
To create a vacuum in the crankcase on an N/A motor is easy.
You know that line that goes from the TB to valvecover nipple? That lets fresh air into the crankcase & allows the PCV to breath un-restricted. On an N/A setup, put a one-way check valve in that line so air can escape the crankcase, but not enter it. Any pressure in the crankcase during WOT will vent through this line w/ease. This will create a vacuum in the crankcase, but it may be too much. IE, if idle vacuum is 15 inches, you may see 15 inches of vacuum in the crankcase which can cause issues on a wet-sump system. You'll want to limit vacuum in the crankcase to ~8inches max. I did this by plumbing an adjustable valve above the PCV.
Boosted motors are a bit tricky. You absolutely NEED to have pressure vented during WOT. The TB line is normally capped off (for good reason), but the VC line normally connects to the blower/turbo inlet. This is were you'll want to install the one-way check valve. Again, so it will allow air to escape the crankcase, but not enter it.
You can check crankcase vacuum by using a vacuum guage on the valvecover nipple.
BTW, this will also pretty much eliminate oil getting sucked into the intake through the PCV. (assuming no excessive blowby)
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
shawn: Why would you put a one way valve(PCV valve) on the line that supplies the crankcase with fresh air?
The stock PCV valve sucks out all the blow-by(un-burnt fuel and carbon)that comes from mostly the piston rings....Blow-by is especially worse with superchargers and turbo's..(Im sure you know that)
Why would you stick a valve stoping the the clean air from comming in and cleaning out the blowby that contamenates your "Amsoil"(engine oil)?????? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
My solution is to cap off both the TB vacuum nipple and the VC vacuum nipple and just running a "screw in" breather filter where the oil cap used to be.. ![[burnout]](graemlins/burnout.gif)
*Note to everyone---Its been dyno prove that running no PCV creates crankcase pressure and a loss of horse power.. ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Running the stock PCV system with a valvecover breather lets in un-metered air. That's why there is a vacuum line from the VC to TB. The air at the TB has already been metered by the Mass-air. Unfortunately, you can't use this setup with a supercharged/turbo motor.
There is another problem. On healthy motors that have good idle vacuum & good oil pressure, the PCV tends to suck oil into the intake, contaminating the incoming air-charge & effectively leaning the mixture. I was seeing LOTS of oil in the back 4 runners of the intake. On these 5.0's oil tends to sit in the lifter galley. The oil seperator is suppose to seperate the air from the oil, but if you have a stock cam (or any cam) that pulls a decent amount of vacuum, the PCV (being un-restricted) will suck up the oil/air mixture too fast for the oil seperator to work properly....& you get oil in the intake. Even stock motors have this problem.
By using a one-way valve on the VC line, I don't let any fresh air into the crankcase, restricting the air available to the PCV. The PCV still sucks out all the blow-by gasses though. It creates a hefty vacuum in the crankcase....any blow-by is sucked right out into the intake manifold to be burned again. I just don't have the fresh air circulating through the crankcase like the stock setup does.
Most race motors don't use the stock PCV system. A lot of guys run a crankcase e-vac pump. These normally create ~2 inches of vacuum in the crankcase & normally do not run a VC breather.
Other guys run a breather above the PCV & block off the intake port were the PCV normally vents to. This setup works well also (John91coupe does it this way). Once the gasses build up, they vent out the PCV & breather. This setup tends to leave a gassy smell under the hood.
Basically, I found another (cheap) way of evacuating the crankcase blow-by, which also eliminated the oil in the intake problem, & created a small vacuum in the crankcase which helps seal the rings & keep the oil foam to a minimum.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
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posted
so best thing to do is run a line from the valve cover to the inlet of the supercharger so the charger sucks out the pressure?
how far from the blower would you put it to make sure you only have about 2" of vacuum?
Also how do you keep it from sucking in the oil under the valve covers?
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
If your still using the stock PCV system & you run a line from the valvecover nipple to the SC inlet, the PCV will suck fresh air from the VC/SC hose & let un-metered air into the system...if you're running a blow-thru type meter. A draw-thru setup will have metered the air before it enters the supercharger. The supercharger will never make enough vacuum in that line to overcome the PCV system.
Anyway.... To keep oil from entering the SC line, I keep the valvecover baffle in place.
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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BlackNGold
CaliforniaFords.com
Moderator
Member # 655
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posted
ATTN:Shawn/93pony...
..Empty your PM's!! I cant PM you!!
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-SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT-
Posts: 5132 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
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posted
I have no idea what you're saying. By metered air are you talking about Mass Air because I have a speed density set up.
Huge amounts of oil leak out of the breathers i have right now even with baffels. (even when not under boost)
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
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posted
Sorry about that! PM's are clear now.
Chris: Yeah, by metered air, I mean metered by the Mass-air....which obviously doesn't apply to you. Sounds like you have a ton of blow-by....or WAY too much oil getting pumped to the top end. High volume oil pump perhaps?
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www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4266 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Chris M.
Ignore me, all I do is argue online!
Member # 1708
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Sorry about that! PM's are clear now.
Chris: Yeah, by metered air, I mean metered by the Mass-air....which obviously doesn't apply to you. Sounds like you have a ton of blow-by....or WAY too much oil getting pumped to the top end. High volume oil pump perhaps?
actually i don't know what oil pump is on it, it came with the original short block. I sits at about 30 psi at idle and 60 above 1,500 rpm. i doubt it's blow by, i have total seal rings.
Posts: 2828 | From: West Bay, CA | Registered: Aug 2002
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