This is topic Tech story: Testing stock air box+K&N vs Fenderwell cold air kit. in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Hey guys, I found this well written tech story on stock air boxes with K&N stock replacement filters vs fenderwell cold air kits:

http://66.96.130.106/archives/2002/03/coldair/index.shtml

Proved what I (and many others) have thought all along
 

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Posted by cobraman_1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
its alway nice to find out that i have wasted a good $150. thanks fo the info though, even though i could have used this about 5 months ago
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by cobraman_1994:
its alway nice to find out that i have wasted a good $150. thanks fo the info though, even though i could have used this about 5 months ago

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Well you live in Roseville, shame on you for not track testing all your mods at Sac Raceway
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
yeah but what about the headlight ram-air?

edit: also, the temperature is but one part of the equation. airflow is the other, and as such, this article is inconclusive.

[ May 08, 2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by HungryHippo (Member # 537) on :
 
but they make cool "whooshy" noises
 

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Posted by cobraman_1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
well, atleast it looks neat
 

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Posted by sic91sleeper (Member # 779) on :
 
Well they look good, free up space, and i believe they work better than the atricle states. They did try it on a stock car. It may pick up performance gains that cant be tested.

I also thought my car was more responsive if i push the pedal WOT lets say at like 60mph.
 

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Posted by FasterDamnit (Member # 442) on :
 
Thanks for the plug, Sawson! We always report the results of new parts testing- even when the results ain't so good!

1. The car was far from stock (wasn't mine). I believe it was tested w/ the Explorer intake/Holley heads/stock cam/3.55's/Trans Go'd AOD combo. I will find out the particulars and let you know.

2. It was tested on more than one trip to the track- back to back swaps each time.

3. If you call that inconclusive what do you need to actually believe our conclusion? The hole in the fender is larger than the diameter of the intake tubing- how is it a restriction if same type filters are used between the two tests?

JL
 

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Posted by 88gt (Member # 579) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sic91sleeper:
It may pick up performance gains that cant be tested.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
airflow figures or dyno numbers are conclusive.
I consider myself a consistent driver and I can vary by one to two tenths on a given pass myself.
otherwise, the only thing you've proven is that there is no significant temperature change.

I wouldn't expect a temp. change unless you were going through some kind of intercooler, or where somehow expanding the gas rapidly (per pv=rnt)

not saying it's useless information, but track testing a mod that at it's best is only giving a small handful of HP is anecdotal at best.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 67stang:

Finally, yes a dyno is conclusive...but not for measuring the effects of air induction systems (since the car is not moving!)

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in other words, the dynos that Nascar, F1, and the like use do not exist right? More or less a windtunnel attached to a dyno.

granted, good luck getting time on one. But the fact is, they exist, and yes it is a dyno, and yes it would measure ram-air.
not that I'd ever bother of course. unless it was free.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
that's pretty funny.
although it's semantics at this point, "cold-air' intake kits really make no claim to 'chill' the incoming air. Rather they imply they 'pull' ambient cool air from the fenderwell. Just like the stock air-box.

the rwhp gains make no claims to source from temperature as far as I know. They claim to improve airflow. I'm not making this up.

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after all, without expanding the gas or using a refrigerant and some kind of compressor, how in the heck could they claim to "cool" the air?
"cold-air" kit is merely descriptive. show me where they claim to cool the air beyond ambient temperatures. (I am aware they claim to avoid elevated underhood heat, that's not the same thing)

[ May 08, 2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by 67stang (Member # 549) on :
 
shade-tree,

I never said or believed that a cold air kit cools the air... not sure where you got that.

The cold-air kits have always implied that they gain power from picking up coldER air that the stock box. And sure, they probably purport to claim that the conical air filter and contoured elbow all aids is less restriction, more air...

The point is the claims or implications could not be substantiated.

--btw, nice try on the wind tunnel and dyno deal-- Let's face it 99.9% of enthusiasts like you and I measure the effects of things like ram air, slicks, weight reduction at the track or on the street. You dont go to the dyno, and you sure as hell dont even contemplate locating a wind tunnel.
 

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Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
Wow good debate if you ask me.

but hey what do I know??

I wont get it on this one, but it is hard to shake Shade tree

I like him for that reason.

I have my opinions on this one, but I have to keep them to myself here

go get em
 

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Posted by TORQUEPIMP (Member # 386) on :
 
ya shade tree always makes good points. but i think he is right but then sawson's article is right. i think it does nothing for a stock car. but for a pretty modded one it's efficient. but then why not just spend the extra few bux if it is even more expensive at all to just get the ram air kit.

good one Sawson..
 

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Posted by 9cobrasnake9 (Member # 575) on :
 
I put a cold air kit on my Cobra and ran it at the track. After that I took all the air induction off at the mass air meter. I ran the same mph within .5 mph. I was pretty convinced that my densercharger works very well. It had great SOTP improvement as well but I wanted track results.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
even swapping to a "short belt" to bypass the PS pump which takes an easy 5 HP to drive only gives 0.25-0.50 mph at the track.
pretty difficult to measure when the gains are that low. That's within driver error.
(thanks for the kind words above )
 

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Posted by FasterDamnit (Member # 442) on :
 
Here is what Moroso claims on their website-

quote:

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High Flow Air Induction System Mustang 5.0

Making horsepower is as easy as replacing your Mustang's stock air cleaner assembly with Moroso's bolt-in High Flow Air Induction System.

More air means more power. In fact, our Mustang Induction System with its large, computer designed inlet duct and ultra-low restriction filter element flows 122% more air than the stock system. The result is an additional 11 horsepower for significantly lower 0-60 MPH and quarter mile ET's!

Increased air flow is only half the story. Unlike other designs that draw air from the hot engine compartment, Moroso's System positions the high-flow pleated filter element outside of the engine compartment between the fender panels — ingesting cooler, denser air for more power. And because it doesn't hang under the front bumper like "Ram Air" kits, your engine won't swallow road dirt and ground clearance isn't reduced.

Every component in our High Flow Air Induction System for 5.0L Mustangs is manufactured with superior materials and craftsmanship. From the rotationally-molded air inlet duct, to stainless steel clamps, competition-style filter element and bolt-in powder coated mounting plate, the quality of Moroso's Mustang Air Induction System is far superior to other brands. And despite the quality workmanship, premium materials and performance benefits, it's also priced lower than other Mustang kits!

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Granted, we tested against a K&N Filter w/ silencer removed. The real question is- Is it worth spending $89 (Summit) on when the cheaper K&N yields similar results?

JL
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
there are dyno results showing over 10 rwhp in certain N.A. applications. everyone should probably decide for themselves what they think is "worth it".
On an AOD stocker 5 liter is it worth it? Probably not.

AFM power pipes have been shown to be worth >20 rwhp on blown applications. And yes, it is a version of a cold-air intake.
Do I need one on my civic? again, probably not

If all anyone ever cared about was $$$/HP we'd all be driving motorcycles. That, or our only mods on our cars would be slicks, gears, and nitrous.

but what it sounds like I'm hearing is the following... "...these are the finding from our case study. You will submit to our interpretation..."

I'd be the last to argue that you're getting a great bang for the buck with those $150 cold-air kits on a stocker. However, I will stand by the countless dyno results that show about a 2-5 HP gain on a stockish 5 liter. There's more power to be had the further from stock you get. Ever see the 4" (or larger) intakes the blower/turbo guys use? Or would you still figure the stock airbox is not a limitation? Of course not. All depends on the application.

or we could just cut the jib-jabbering and ask the dynoo operator at Apex. He probably has run the test and has hard data for dozens of cars. That wouldn't be too difficult would it?

[ May 09, 2002, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by TORQUEPIMP (Member # 386) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
there are dyno results showing over 10 rwhp in certain N.A. applications. everyone should probably decide for themselves what they think is "worth it".
On an AOD stocker 5 liter is it worth it? Probably not.

AFM power pipes have been shown to be worth >20 rwhp on blown applications. And yes, it is a version of a cold-air intake.
Do I need one on my civic? again, probably not

If all anyone ever cared about was $$$/HP we'd all be driving motorcycles. That, or our only mods on our cars would be slicks, gears, and nitrous.

but what it sounds like I'm hearing is the following... "...these are the finding from our case study. You will submit to our interpretation..."

I'd be the last to argue that you're getting a great bang for the buck with those $150 cold-air kits on a stocker. However, I will stand by the countless dyno results that show about a 2-5 HP gain on a stockish 5 liter. There's more power to be had the further from stock you get. Ever see the 4" (or larger) intakes the blower/turbo guys use? Or would you still figure the stock airbox is not a limitation? Of course not. All depends on the application.

or we could just cut the jib-jabbering and ask the dynoo operator at Apex. He probably has run the test and has hard data for dozens of cars. That wouldn't be too difficult would it?

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exactly i mean when the engine is getting forced more air from a blower or turbo or even ram air. you neet to straighten air flow and allow the accesability to get more air. i mean a blower does not pull air out of its ass (ok well technically it does) it needs to get air from somewhere. that is where you start worrying about he efficience and flow of the induction system. on a stock you might see small with cold air cuz you are still giving a better path to the engine.

wow i love this topic
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
I can't believe this post has blown up over such a trivial topic.... so I'm going to toss some more fuel in:

http://www.corral.net/tech/powerplant/moroso/moroso.html
 

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Posted by TORQUEPIMP (Member # 386) on :
 
the only problem i had was that it was only an increase of 4-5 rwhp and that was after the car sat for an hour.. shit anyone will get that type of increase when the engine cooled down. there are no engine mods that will require more air so it is kinda useless. and well also you have to look at the fact it is on a dyno. i mean there is nothing that would change the flow of air. If you add in the moving car might cool the fender that the induction kit is located in and give you in essence colder air.. i would still say go with the ram air kits they have. but then you are not going to tell on a dyno the gains.

[ May 10, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: TORQUEPIMP ]
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
cooler motors (especially EFI) definitely make more power.

btw, how has this "blown up" ? all I see is disagreement. What we have to agree on everything?
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
cooler motors (especially EFI) definitely make more power.

btw, how has this "blown up" ? all I see is disagreement. What we have to agree on everything?

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blown up = post that was expected to get 5 replies tops is on its 2nd page now and still burning with passion
 

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Posted by v8302stangs (Member # 530) on :
 
I posted the article on streetracing.org boards and got a pretty negative response - most people seem to not want to accept that CAI really does nearly nothing to performance, yet the average streetracing.org member knows nothing about cars really..

http://www.sromagazine.com/boards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43874&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by v8302stangs:
I posted the article on streetracing.org boards

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What do rice-boys really know anyways?
 

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Posted by sic91sleeper (Member # 779) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:

quote:

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Originally posted by v8302stangs:
I posted the article on streetracing.org boards

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What do rice-boys really know anyways?

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quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:

quote:

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Originally posted by v8302stangs:
I posted the article on streetracing.org boards

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What do rice-boys really know anyways?

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He he well there are a few people on there who know their shit, those people seem to agree with it for the most part. The rest of the people either don't know jack shit and fall for it, or know a decent amount and seem to be standing up for CAI just because they already payed for it.
 

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Posted by 1sicgt (Member # 714) on :
 
Ok, the Moroso intake, I don't think as a real good test CAI system comparing to a stock with K&N. I think a full intake where the tube goes to TB gives a real gain comparing to either one of the systems tested. And the test was comparing very like systems, that why there is no real gain. But the stock intake with paper filter vs. a CAI. There would be a noticable gain. Just my $.02
 

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