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Author
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Topic: Anything to heads but flow numbers?
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FasterDamnit
Bad Attitude
Member # 442
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posted
 
 
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Actually volume does include the cross section regardless of shape. Triple intergrals.... its just the sum of the boundries set on the X and Y axis for Z length. 3-D stuff is just impossible to explain on a 2-D message board, I'm gonna forfeit the match and get some real work done ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Of course this way of calculating volume takes a very long time for irregular shapes.
I'd say this is damn hard to explain online, but a very easy concept to explain with pen and paper in real life.
Joe brings up a good point about where you measure cross section.... that's the Newtonian way of looking at things. I likes ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
The real question is.... how much more RWHP is a 99 cent bag of ice worth compared to minor nit picking of port size? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Why is it so hard to explain? Yes, integrate on all three axes, after you work out the equations for the complex curves involved. But then you have an equation describing a three dimensional shape. Just having the answer of the volume for two different shapes tells you nothing. Volume 1 equaling volume 2 does not mean that shape 1 works as well as shape 2. And if you can actually see the complex shape from the mathematical representation, you are far better at this than I am.
Posts: 2971 | From: NorCal | Registered: Sep 2001
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jmcclesk
Moderator
Member # 1355
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posted
Man you guys ARE way over my head ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Ford trained ASE master tech.
Posts: 4024 | From: marrysville | Registered: May 2002
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John91coupe
CAFords OG
Member # 18
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posted
I sure am glad that Brian Tooley at TEA understands all of this stuff ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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D-2R ProCharged R302 331
1.410 60 ft.
5.784 @ 122.92 1/8
8.953 @ 155.08
MM&FF Feature June 2003
Posts: 1361 | From: Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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JoeT
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Member # 298
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posted
Although cross section and volume are definitely interrelated, when it comes to an airflow discussion they still must be considered independant variables.
The classic example is the AFR vs TFS heads.
The cross section of the TFS head *is* larger if you account for it's twisted valve angle and measure it on that plane, otherwise it appears to have the same cross section as the AFR head. Very, very close runner volume, very similar CFM #'s, yet totally different runner length.
Unless we want to conclude that "volume=volume" when it comes to airflow I would keep the variables seperate.
[ April 09, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
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1984 Ford Tempo AOD--- RIP
Posts: 6785 | From: San Jose | Registered: Jun 2001
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92coupe
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Member # 1957
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posted
so aww what kinda heads should i get with out needing porting??
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94-GT BLOWN & STROKED
Posts: 1209 | From: antioch | Registered: Oct 2002
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Stimson
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Member # 51
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by John91coupe:
I sure am glad that Brian Tooley at TEA understands all of this stuff
I agree After the 3rd or 4th post, the nit picking details don't matter and we (people on this post) simply don't have the real life data to back up our theory.
Posts: 2373 | Registered: Jun 2000
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yellow67stang
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Member # 903
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posted
You guys are just like my very good friend Chad who is an aeronautical engineer. He analyzes the poop out of the way things are and when it comes down to applying his knowledge he cant do it! Thetas what this post reminds me of. A lot of theory. I wish I went to school for math so I can figure out how to make power.
Wait a minute....I don't need to be an engineer to make power. These air pumps that we all love are not even close to being rocket science and is very easy to make power with little knowledge.
And I would be willing to bet the the guys at TEA would not be able to discuss in detail what you guys are talking about. To a point they probably can but, you would soon reach a point where a head porter would just ask you to shut the fuck up and let them do there job.
Just my view point.
Eric
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I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
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FasterDamnit
Bad Attitude
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 92coupe:
so aww what kinda heads should i get with out needing porting??
AFR's
165 for N/A 302, 185 for power adder 302 or stroker.
Twisted Wedge for 302, ported Twisted wedge for power adder 302 or stroker.
Wish I knew something about power so I could make some...
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'92 LX T5
Looked stock, went 11's 11.90 at 115mph.
'65 Mustang 347
www.fordmuscle.com
Livin' in the Carolina Pines
Posts: 2971 | From: NorCal | Registered: Sep 2001
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yellow67stang
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Member # 903
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posted
If you believe everything you read in magazines or even better the internet than I dont know what to tell you.
Inflation always occurs in articles like that to sell products. Thats why they are doing the article. Not saying that the article is wrong but he is not doing anything special with that head.
The Windsor heads are a great head for the money and can make some good power. So, I dont know why you think they are the worst aftermarket head out there. There are some Ford aftermarket head that are much worse than the windsors.
Still though, if the guys at TEA new what you were talk ing about they probably wouldnt say a damn thing because that's what they are selling.
Eric
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I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
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FasterDamnit
Bad Attitude
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
If you believe everything you read in magazines or even better the internet than I dont know what to tell you.
Inflation always occurs in articles like that to sell products. Thats why they are doing the article. Not saying that the article is wrong but he is not doing anything special with that head.
The Windsor heads are a great head for the money and can make some good power. So, I dont know why you think they are the worst aftermarket head out there. There are some Ford aftermarket head that are much worse than the windsors.
Still though, if the guys at TEA new what you were talk ing about they probably wouldnt say a damn thing because that's what they are selling.
Eric
We did not get paid to do that article. It was not done as a form of advertising. TEA does not advertise on our site (up to this point, almost no one does.)We quoted Brian as saying they were the worst flowing aluminum aftermarket heads he had seen, not that they are the worst, period. And they are not the Winndsor heads, they are the Windsor Jr. heads. There is a difference. The Windsors have bigger intake ports and I have seen them make some good power out of the box.
Posts: 2971 | From: NorCal | Registered: Sep 2001
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yellow67stang
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Member # 903
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I didn't say that you guys get paid. I meant that most of the "crap" that is in magazines like Car Craft, Hot Rod and stuff like those magazines do a really good job of fudging everything in efforts to sell the product that they are talking about.
If it was not for advertising then why mention the people who did the heads? You may not think it is a form of advertising but it most certainly is and I am sure TEA had no problem giving you information for the sole purpose of getting his name out there even more!!!
I Don't know a thing about your online magazine. So, I cannot challenge your online magazines integrity. But, I have seen it numerous times.
I have a good idea. If you are in charge of that online magazine lets do a "shot out" on Ford Cylinder heads. TEA against the small guys. I think that would be a great article and would finally show the world that places like TEA or Fox Lake are not the "end all" in cylinder head porting. Let me know.
Eric
[ April 09, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: yellow67stang ]
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I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
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67stang
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Member # 549
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
I didn't say that you guys get paid. I meant that most of the "crap" that is in magazines like Car Craft, Hot Rod and stuff like those magazines do a really good job of fudging everything in efforts to sell the product that they are talking about.
If it was not for advertising then why mention the people who did the heads? You may not think it is a form of advertising but it most certainly is and I am sure TEA had no problem giving you information for the sole purpose of getting his name out there even more!!!
I Don't know a thing about your online magazine. So, I cannot challenge your online magazines integrity. But, I have seen it numerous times.
I have a good idea. If you are in charge of that online magazine lets do a "shot out" on Ford Cylinder heads. TEA against the small guys. I think that would be a great article and would finally show the world that places like TEA or Fox Lake are not the "end all" in cylinder head porting. Let me know.
Eric
Let me address your concerns Eric, because you are right, you don't know much about FordMuscle.
Last point first - the "shoot out" is something we already did. We tested virtually every Ford aftermarket and factory head produced. That data is here: http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/05/heads/index.shtml
I dont understand your point about TEA and fox lake. Who said they were the "end all"? If you can port with the methods and skills on par or better than TEA, than you deserve to be on top. There is a reason why their heads are on NHRA champ cars... there is also a reason why Brian Tooley was the principal engineer of the Holley Systemax head. I guess that reason is, he knows his shit... i am willing to bet he also knows volumes more than the keyboard einsteins on this and other boards.
Your point about mentioning TEA... why wouldn't we mention them. They did the work didn't they? What would we say..."we had the heads ported, they gained 30%, but we're not gonna tell you who did it?"
There is clear distinction between getting paid to say/write something, and endorsing something on its own merit. If you think the latter is advertising, then I'm sorry your logic is flawed. Do they benefit from it, sure they do. That is what makes the world go around... you have a good experience, you refer to others.
What makes FordMuscle significantly different than some magazines, is that we also do the converse. If there is a bad product, or a problem with a product, we say so. We gave the straight up on problems with the then new Roush 200 heads here: http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/09/roush200/index.shtml
We gave the scoop on why Holley heads fail after a few thousand miles in this article:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/08/efimotor/index.shtml
We gave the story on how Edelbrock uses cheap valve spring shims: http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/09/efimotor/index.shtml
There are plenty more examples. Just gotta read...
Chirag Asaravala
Editor
FordMuscle.com
Posts: 596 | Registered: Nov 2001
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yellow67stang
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Member # 903
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posted
When I said "Shoot out" I meant between head porters. Give everybody the same head to see who can do the best work.
The reason why I say that is because I am damn sure that these "big dog" Mass production, CNC companies would get something handed to them. I would like to put the truth out there.
Get Mondello in the match...LOL And Gromm. I also got a guy or 3 that would want in on some head porting action. People that nobody has heard of but know what they are doing
Just to show that you get what you pay for! It would be fun to see what would happen.
It makes for a great article and give exposer (Advertisements) to everybody.
But whatever, it does not mean a thing really for me. I know where power is made. Not in magazines. And definatly not on the internet. Just a place to cure my boredom
Eric
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I like cars.
Posts: 371 | From: Ca. | Registered: Feb 2002
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