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» Northern California Ford Owners     » Automotive   » Tech Talk   » Fuel Delivery Problems??? Part II

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Author Topic: Fuel Delivery Problems??? Part II
Elapid
GOROBGO
Member # 50

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well, we finally had enough warm days in a row for me to work on the ride...

[recap]

Under WOT acceleration, around 6000 rpm, the fuel pressure starts dropping off rather than staying steady @ 40 psi. the car is a 1998 with a supercharged DOHC motor, walbro 255 lph in-tank, walbro 255 lph in-line, stock fuel lines, stock rails, stock fpr, 42lb/hr injectors, no FMU, tune by Byron Reynolds.

[/recap]

i put in a fresh fuel filter, no change.
i bypassed the inline pump, no change.
or not much...i think it's better since i can't feel the power drop off like it did before and the pressure only drops to about 30 psi instead of 20 psi...
i guess i need to pull the in-tank pump next?
i didn't install it myself, so i'm wondering if there's a way the tech botched the installation? the pump is less than 1 year old with maybe 5k miles on it...

it all started after they had the motor out...

i think i'll go look under the hood, maybe i can see something

[Mad]

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98 Cobra
83 Notch rolling chassis - fs

Posts: 1797 | From: Grass Valley, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  :
mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052

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It is likely that the in-tank pump might be spraying outside of the bucket. If you don't shim up the plastic fitting that goes on top of the in-tank pump what happens is the fuel being pumped ends up spraying outside the bucket instead of into the fuel line. So you'll get some pressure but not full pressure. I like to hook a battery up to the pump while the tank is out and watch the in-tank pump work to insure that all the fuel being pumped is going into the line and not spraying outside of it. Basically the car will show 40psi at idle and cruise since the amount being pumped can fill the lines with those demands, but once you drop the hammer the car gulpes a lot more down and the amount you have spraying outside the bucket drops your fuel pressure down. Hope this helps

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R.I.P. Charlie Bruno Dec 2001

Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004  |  :
Elapid
GOROBGO
Member # 50

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what if they changed the vacuum system?
what if the fuel pressure regulator doesn't see the 10 psi of boost? it wouldn't compensate by raising the fuel rail pressure an equal amount, would it?

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98 Cobra
83 Notch rolling chassis - fs

Posts: 1797 | From: Grass Valley, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  :
mtbaughs
Road Racer
Member # 4052

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what if they changed the vacuum system?
what if the fuel pressure regulator doesn't see the 10 psi of boost? it wouldn't compensate by raising the fuel rail pressure an equal amount, would it?

Why did they change the vacuum system? As long as there is a vacuum source going to the regulator that should be all it needs. I've seen many supercharged cars run a stock regulator on your year car with no problems. The regulator isn't like an FMU in that it doesn't ram fuel in when the car is in boost. All it does is keep a constant 40psi or so throughout the entire band. If the pressure drops below that range than it allows more fuel into the system from the regulator back to the tank. Keeping the pressure at 40psi or so at the injectors. The problem you are having lies somewhere from the regulator back. I am willing to bet it is either your external pump acting as a cork in the system or what is happening is that the external pump is running dry at high RPMS because the in-tank pump is not supplying it like it should. Does it do this with a full tank of gas? Sometimes a full tank of gas will completely submerge the bucket in the tank and will allow the pump to deliver the required amount of fuel as it won't when the tank is partially full exposing the top of the bucket.

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R.I.P. Charlie Bruno Dec 2001

Posts: 2019 | From: Boise, Idaho | Registered: Jan 2004  |  :
Elapid
GOROBGO
Member # 50

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the fuel rails need to stay higher than 40 psi if the nozzle is in a +10psi environment to actually spray fuel at 40 psi. the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator is so the system can keep nozzle pressure constant at the injector.

hypothetically; if i was running 40 psi of boost, the rails would need to pressurize to 80 psi to keep a relative +40 psi at the injector.

snipped from http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6452

quote:
The important thing often overlooked is that the nozzle outlet pressure of the injector MUST REMAIN CONSTANT against the forces of increasing/decreasing pressure in the manifold. Imagine a door you are trying to keep shut against the wind, but this door has no latch, so it’s up to you to keep enough pressure applied to keep it shut as the wind against it increases or decreases. In order to keep the door in the same position, you would have to apply equal force on your side against the wind speed (force) trying to open it.

Now, what if you wanted to allow some air through the door, but you never wanted it to rush in faster or slower. The principle would still be the same as above with one exception: you would have to apply slightly more opposing force to the door at all times to keep the rush of air constant coming in as the wind changed.

Now, an example of what goes on in your manifold: Let’s use an easy one. Suppose you have 10 psi boost inside your manifold. The injector (Ford) is rated at 39 psi operating pressure. What fuel pressure do you need to overcome the boost pressure in the manifold?

fuel rail pressure - manifold pressure = nozzle outlet pressure (or delta pressure).

In order to keep the delta (Ford’s rated operating pressure) constant (39 psi), the fuel pressure in the rail would HAVE TO BE 49 psi at 10 psi boost, because 49 - 10 = 39.

Now, a not so easy one. If the idle pressure was 30 to 32 psi (typical on most Ford systems), how could you get 39 psi at the nozzle outlet in the manifold? Since the manifold now has vacuum and not boost, how can you produce 39 psi at the nozzle with only 30 psi in the rail?

You can do it because remember the most important thing: it’s all about nozzle outlet pressure (delta). Because we read vacuum in inches, it’s confusing (who’s idea was that anyway?). Write this down: Every 1 psi of atmospheric pressure = 2.036 inches of mercury (Hg). So, if you are sitting there idling at 18 inches (Hg), how many psi would that be?

Inches of Hg / 2.036 = psi or 18 inches Hg / 2.036 = -8.84 psi (ahh, only this is NEGATIVE boost)

In order to keep the delta (Ford’s rated operating pressure) constant (39 psi), the fuel pressure in the rail would HAVE TO BE 30 psi at 18 inches vacuum, because 30.12 - -8.84 = 39

(Note, gauges vary a little - if you see ~15 to 16 inches at idle, then you should see ~ 31 to 32 psi in the rail).

Now you know what your fuel pressure should be at all times under all conditions: vacuum or boost! If you have 15 psi boost, then you better have 54 psi in the rail, right? What if the vacuum was 10 inches? Then you better have 34 psi in the rail (10 / 2.036 = -4.91, or 34.09 - -4.91 = 39).

Another way to look at it is vacuum or boost + 39 = desired fuel rail pressure (-4.91 psi + 39 psi = 34.09 psi).



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98 Cobra
83 Notch rolling chassis - fs

Posts: 1797 | From: Grass Valley, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  :


 
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