This is topic YAY. New Issue BHG? *BAD A9L was cause* in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners .
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://californiafords.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=030080
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
I now have a light brownish creamy milkshake-ish liquid flowing/dripping/spitting out the driver side exhaust tail pipe, along with smoke (not steam) because it doesnt smell like coolant, more like normal exhaust smoke and its white.
Now, I did find out i have liquid (brown oily type which im assuming is oil/water) running down from the area of the number 8 cylinder onto my mid-pipe in and around the O2 sensor and it continues running on the under side of my mid-pipe which causes smoke when i run my car (due to the heat). I also noticed, when i got up under the car that the exhaust hanger was transplanted to another part of the mid-pipe, so the original hanger was die grinded off and and now there is an open slice in the mid-pipe where exhaust gases escape...and apparently oil or an oily substance as well, so it drips there too (is there supposed to be oil there? im thinking no)
Back to the leak around the number 8 cylinder area. The wet spots ive noticed are above the area where the head meets the block. The area/parts that are wet is the head bolt by the number 8 cylinder closest to the firewall, the header bolt at the number 8 closest to the firewall as well, and the area on the head near the same header bolt.
is it possible for a HG leak to run UP in those areas i mentioned? The valve cover gasket looks to be leak free in that area, i checked thoroughly. I also checked for any "runs" and couldnt find any other locations on the engine.
I checked the coolant in the radiator and it is normal, coolant rez is almost empty but the bottom of it had green coolant still, no brown stuff. I pulled the dipstick, oil is normal color and at fill level, pulled number 8 spark plug and other than a little wet with fuel, it looks okay to me.
When i have time, i am going to do a coolant exhaust gas test (?) or maybe a compression test on the number 8 cylinder.
in the meantime, do you all think i have a BHG based on what ive told you? Sure hope not, but im thinking i do.
[ 2018-10-01, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: fredfifty ]
Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on
:
You recently washed your car or got water to go in your tail pipes? I'd wipe everything down good and take a short drive and then check it all out again. It might just be condensation inside your tail pipes.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
Cash Rules Everything Around Me
The run from the #8 cylinder area
If you look, you can see the oil collecting
Header bolt & Head bolt wet
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by NEIGHT:
You recently washed your car or got water to go in your tail pipes? I'd wipe everything down good and take a short drive and then check it all out again. It might just be condensation inside your tail pipes.
nope, never washed with a hose so bad as to cause that fluid in my tail pipe. Shes always garaged and hardly driven...what sucks is, i cant let it run long enough because i dont want to do the neighbors dirty by blowing white exhaust smoke everywhere on the block. The pics pretty much show where its originating from, just under the #8 header flange.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Is that a twisted valve cover lip in the last picture? Leaks from the back of the lower intake or valve cover are common. Can you use a small telescopic mirror to see back there? It has to be a head gasket or intake leak for coolant and water to mix. Can you do a compression or leak down test?
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Take out the plugs on that side of the motor. One of them could look different.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martinna:
Is that a twisted valve cover lip in the last picture? Leaks from the back of the lower intake or valve cover are common. Can you use a small telescopic mirror to see back there? It has to be a head gasket or intake leak for coolant and water to mix. Can you do a compression or leak down test?
VC lip is not twisted. I will get a mirror to get look behind the heads and VC. it looks like i will need to have that O2 bung re-done...I am sure it is leaking, and that liquid (smells like a mixture of fuel) is seeping thru a bad weld on that bung. all bad, maybe bad fuel injector ahdunno
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martinna:
Take out the plugs on that side of the motor. One of them could look different.
i took out number 8 plug, but i didnt take out any other plug to compare. on the list to do.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Feel for oil with your bare fingers behind the motor if the leak is bad enough. It sounds like a small head gasket leak. A leak down test will reveal it quickly. Look for bubbles in your radiator catch can while the guilty cylinder is being pressurized.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
#8 plug
#7 plug
#5 plug
Wet area behind driver side head
I think im gonna check the torque on that last head bolt...
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
shit that last pic, i just zoomed in and noticed what looks like a crack. Not sure it thats the engine paint coating coming off or what. Gonna check later.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
That much oil shouldn't get past the rings and into the combustion chamber. Are you the valve cover isn't leaking? You could have two issues. A lower intake or valve cover leak and a blown head gasket. Borrow a leak down tester. Make a general talk post. Someone here has to have one.
Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on
:
I'm no expert but I'd say the head gasket needs to be replaced. I'd do both to save you from taking apart anytime soon. Is the upper/lower intake wet from underneath or is it all just on the top of the head?
Posted by SLOWSN95 (Member # 8269) on
:
Are those stock head bolts on an aluminum head?? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SLOWSN95:
Are those stock head bolts on an aluminum head??
not sure...is that a major issue if they are?
Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by fredfifty:
quote:
Originally posted by SLOWSN95:
Are those stock head bolts on an aluminum head??
not sure...is that a major issue if they are?
Well you shouldn't reuse stock head bolts at all, I thought the whole time this car was bone stock. No wonder you've been having problems.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by NEIGHT:
quote:
Originally posted by fredfifty:
quote:
Originally posted by SLOWSN95:
Are those stock head bolts on an aluminum head??
not sure...is that a major issue if they are?
Well you shouldn't reuse stock head bolts at all, I thought the whole time this car was bone stock. No wonder you've been having problems.
car came like that...but now i know
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Stock head bolts stretch and can't be reused. ARP head bolts can be reused. If the car came like that, the previous owner had no idea what he was doing. There are bound to be other big mistakes. Look over everything carefully. A klutz wrenched on it in the past.
[ 2018-01-18, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Martinna ]
Posted by KevinK (Member # 9234) on
:
Stock heads usually have a freeze plug on the back side. Check that for leaks.
Posted by 4IDFOX (Member # 9921) on
:
Head bolt stretch is most likely not the problem. The bottom head bolt holes penetrate the water jacket. If sealer was not used on the bolts they can leak and cause a blown head gasket.
They don't always leak but it does happen. Pretty sure that is what happened here.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
I was actually thinking it might be a valve stem seal that went out
Posted by 4IDFOX (Member # 9921) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by fredfifty:
I was actually thinking it might be a valve stem seal that went out
Nope. It's a head gasket. When you put it back together use thread sealer on the bottom head bolts.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by 4IDFOX:
quote:
Originally posted by fredfifty:
I was actually thinking it might be a valve stem seal that went out
Nope. It's a head gasket. When you put it back together use thread sealer on the bottom head bolts.
when I took my midpipe off at the header, I can see wet oil in the header...you still think that's a HG issue?
Posted by 4IDFOX (Member # 9921) on
:
Go rent a coolant system pressure tester from your favorite parts store. Pressurize the system and watch for leaks.
Pull the plugs and watch/listen for air or water.
The water coming up around the head bolt threads can lift and blow a head gasket. I am pretty sure this has happened to your engine.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
Gonna do a compression test. Is it okay to remove the cold air intake tube while doing the test for easier access to the plugs...or do i need to have it on to perform the test?
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
You can remove it.
Posted by 4IDFOX (Member # 9921) on
:
You can remove it. Make sure you have the throttle wide open when you perform the test. Also is best to shut down the fuel pump. Pull the relay or the impact switch.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
Alright ran compression....by cylinder in numerical order 140/140/144/150/142/140/142/however number 8 does not hold pressure. It will go up as the car is cranked (up to about 160, then when we stop cranking, the gauge pressure drops slowly to zero). We did the test to #8 a few times, same result. Also checked snugness, it was good. Checked fittings, good. This was a dry test, we did not do the wet test.
What do yall think? Googled it and its pointing towards the valve guide. Thats what im hoping as its the easiest to fix from what im hearing.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
A worn valve won't cause coolant and oil to mix. After you did cylinder 8, did you test another cylinder to make sure the O ring or hose of your gauge isn't leaking? Can you do a leak down test?
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
my coolant is fine, no loss or change in level. As far as the frothy cream...im almost certain that its fuel and oil with a little condensation...not coolant. it smells of it as well, not sweet.
I have not done a leak down test...dont have the tool, yet. I have done a wet compression reading on the suspect cylinder (#8) and it came back holding at 150 psi..unlike the dry test which shoots to 240 psi momentarily, then after cranking, falls to zero.
so, after that wet test, im assuming i have a failed piston ring. am i 100 percent correct, or could i be wrong?
(im no mechanic by trade, i read and watch videos before and after i diagnose something)
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
It's normal for oil to smell like fuel. Modern coolant doesn't smell sweet. Coolant from many years ago smelled sweet and was toxic to animals it attracted. Fuel will quickly evaporate when mixed with oil. It doesn't stay around to leave a frothy cream. Did you test cylinder 8 again cold?
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martinna:
It's normal for oil to smell like fuel. Modern coolant doesn't smell sweet. Coolant from many years ago smelled sweet and was toxic to animals it attracted. Fuel will quickly evaporate when mixed with oil. It doesn't stay around to leave a frothy cream. Did you test cylinder 8 again cold?
For the most part, the motor was cold. I could not warm the motor due to that frothy crap spouting and splattering on the ground and the smoke was kinda bad, but i dont want neighbors getting that in their house.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Do you have a black light? A black light in a dark garage can sometimes help reveal leak sources. The leak source shouldn't be hard to find if it's spraying as bad as you say.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
I pinpointed the oil/fluid leak at the O2 sensor/bung (bad weld-sensor not seated right) where it runs down the midpipe. For the oil and what not that makes it past the bung, it comes out the tailpipe. When i took the midpipe off, i can see the inside of the header is wet with oil/fluid. Thats why im thinking uts the rings. I am looking at getting a borescope to look into and under the valve cover through the oil fill hole (carb valve covers) to see if i can visually see if my valve stem seals are obviously bad. Would that be a possibility?
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
A valve stem seal would cause smokey startups in the morning. If the leak is frothy, oil and water are mixing. A head gasket is more likely than a cracked block. It's looking like you're going to have to pull the cylinder head soon. The boroscope can show you scraped walls from bad rings. Some parts stores let you rent a radiator pressure tester if you want to see if your coolant system can hold pressure. Put the special cap on your radiator and use the hand pump to inject 10-15psi. You have a coolant leak if it doesn't hold this pressure.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martinna:
A valve stem seal would cause smokey startups in the morning. If the leak is frothy, oil and water are mixing. A head gasket is more likely than a cracked block. It's looking like you're going to have to pull the cylinder head soon. The boroscope can show you scraped walls from bad rings. Some parts stores let you rent a radiator pressure tester if you want to see if your coolant system can hold pressure. Put the special cap on your radiator and use the hand pump to inject 10-15psi. You have a coolant leak if it doesn't hold this pressure.
the leak at the o2 bung is an oily mixture, not frothy. its only frothy when it exits the tailpipe.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Okay. You have a good plan then. Valve stem seals and a borosope. Rotate the crank until cylinder 8 is all the way down so you can see if the cylinder walls are damaged.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Martinna:
Okay. You have a good plan then. Valve stem seals and a borosope. Rotate the crank until cylinder 8 is all the way down so you can see if the cylinder walls are damaged.
Can you recommend a good boroscope? I was looking at the wifi one that goes thru your smartphone.
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
I've never found a good one at a reasonable price. Get a cheap one with a knob to adjust its LED backlight.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
if i had a valve stem seal leak, would oil reaching the exhaust tailpipe seem plausible? or would it make more sense to be the piston rings? trying to gauge the amount of oil escaping thru my exhaust system, unburned.
also, is there alot of oil under the valve covers/rocker area, that if leaked thru the valve stem seal, would even be enough to reach and exit out the tailpipe?
i hope im making sense...
Posted by Martinna (Member # 12493) on
:
Oil can leak past the piston rings. Not easily. It has to be a big valve stem leak. Valve stem leaks first show themselves as smoke on startup after the car has been sitting over night. You can take out a spark plug and pump oil in the cylinder and see if it comes down he header. It'll be a smelly smoke show when you start the car though.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
put another motor in (118k mi from an 89) and still have the same issue....fuel mixture leaking out the exhaust where the clamps are that connect the exhaust tubes. same fricken problem like with the last motor! does this mean the fuel injector harness is bad or the ecm is bad? I ran codes, but nothing that would indicate my problem. just a nss switch code, thats it.
can the FI harness go bad? damn this sucks
[ 2018-07-29, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: fredfifty ]
Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on
:
I would try a different computer to see what happens. Your computer might be fucked to where it's just dumping fuel. Are your o2 sensors connected? Do you go thru gas like no tomorrow? I had the same problem before but I had it because I didn't have any o2 sensors at all so it would just dump fuel. Super strong smell of gas comes out the exhaust.
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
I replaced the a9p with an a9L (awhile ago) being that the car was originally an auto but was converted to 5 spd. I also replaced the oxygen sensor harness that was for an 88-90 t-5...my car is a 92, i found out the jumper in the 91-93 o2 harness is different. So i just replaced it. Havent did a full running test on it yet, just a start up. It appeared to have no more fuel leaking from the exhaust clamps...but that was a mini run and it was late at night. Going to run it longer later on in the week or maybe the weekend. Thanks to Tim at Pony Performance for his help.
Yes still have o2’s, matter of fact, new ford ones.
[ 2018-07-31, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: fredfifty ]
Posted by fredfifty (Member # 10320) on
:
88-90 t5 harness (which i had, and i believe what was causing fuel to be dumped thru #8 cylinder due to wrong jumper wire position, sending or giving wrong info to o2 sensor from ecm-im no mechanic so bear with me)
Replaced by this 91-93 t5 harness now (hope this solves my problem—running test later in the week)
Posted by NEIGHT (Member # 8741) on
:
Yeah Tim is one knowledgeable dude, hopefully it fixes your problem.
Fueled by Ford Mustang Owners
on CaliforniaFords.com