This is topic Long tubes vs. Shorties in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by Ryan_LX (Member # 7089) on :
 
What are your guys' thoughts, do you think its worth switching from shorties to long tubes? Ive read up on the two and both have advantages over each other. But I would like a personal opinion from someone who has had both.
 
Posted by LILstock3valve (Member # 4702) on :
 
If u worried about smog stick with shorties. If not long tubes all day as far as sound. Do you need them for your particular setup is another question
 
Posted by clone nprogrss (Member # 10342) on :
 
my folks had a certain set of longtubes he had 2 damn near cut everytime he had 2 mess round wit his starter,so he sed the hell wit em an weny with some bbk shorties!! anybody kno what brand those lt's where so he can stay away from them!! oh yeah and his starter wire melted on to the lt"s so thats another con!
 
Posted by 68stanger (Member # 7842) on :
 
I had BBK 1 5/8" LT's on my 91 mustang for years without any problems. never had any clearance problems with my LT's or any starter heat soak or the melting of wires (if you melt wires on your LT's, thats your fault for not tieing things out of the way.

if your going with long tubes the only advice is, stay away from those shit brands like mac, flowtech and summit, they may be cheaper in price but they fit and function like shit.
 
Posted by SAV650HAB (Member # 10324) on :
 
i had bbk shorties with a 2 catted "h" pipe and switched it up to bbk long tubes with the bbk "X" pipe no cats and it made a world of difference performance and sound wise....
 
Posted by LILstock3valve (Member # 4702) on :
 
I ran bbk 1 3/4 LTs with no issues with the starter. I will say this, hi torque mini starters are much easier to maneuver thru the LTs. In any case, have you determined if the setup will benefit enough from LTs to make it worth the time and money.
 
Posted by copcar (Member # 10113) on :
 
This is a long time sticking point for me. I personally HATE long tube headers for street cars. That said, allow me to show the benefits and compromises of both. This comparison assumes the same diameter header tube for both kits.

Shorties:

This applies to short tube unequal length. The equal length shorties should be avoided at all cost.

1) Pass smog - assuming this is important.
2) Easily to access starter and clutch. Only important when these components go out.
3) proven performance upgrade, provided you buy quality (FMS)

4) Most importantly. The ECU is set up to run them from the factory. This means the temperature of the o2 as well as the pulse signal is recognised by the stock computer. VERY IMPORTANT!!!

Long Tubes:

1) Does not pass smog - assuming this is important.
2) Not easy to access starter and clutch. Only important when these components go out.
3)*** Require a tune to function properly
3a) With a tune will match the max hp of unequal length short tube headers but will make better midrange torque and horsepower.
4) rubbing and bottoming out seem to be the order of the day with long tube headers. To keep this from happening, dont go cheap. BBK has good fitment.

Hope that helps

[ January 14, 2011, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: copcar ]
 
Posted by 89 306 (Member # 9042) on :
 
Y do u say equal lenghts should be avoided at all costs??
quote:
Originally posted by copcar:
This is a long time sticking point for me. I personally HATE long tube headers for street cars. That said, allow me to show the benefits and compromises of both. This comparison assumes the same diameter header tube for both kits.

Shorties:

This applies to short tube unequal length. The equal length shorties should be avoided at all cost.

1) Pass smog - assuming this is important.
2) Easily to access starter and clutch. Only important when these components go out.
3) proven performance upgrade, provided you buy quality (FMS)

4) Most importantly. The ECU is set up to run them from the factory. This means the temperature of the o2 as well as the pulse signal is recognised by the stock computer. VERY IMPORTANT!!!

Long Tubes:

1) Does not pass smog - assuming this is important.
2) Not easy to access starter and clutch. Only important when these components go out.
3)*** Require a tune to function properly
3a) With a tune will match the max hp of unequal length short tube headers but will make better midrange torque and horsepower.
4) rubbing and bottoming out seem to be the order of the day with long tube headers. To keep this from happening, dont go cheap. BBK has good fitment.

Hope that helps

 
Posted by copcar (Member # 10113) on :
 
Issues issues issues. First of all they make plug routing and installation a living hell. They are a bitch to install themselves and they make no more power, if anything less than unequal length shorties. Think about it. ehxaust flow path needs to be as straight as possible not tied into knots in a tight area.
 
Posted by 91Trunkster (Member # 6598) on :
 
All the cool people have long tubes...
 
Posted by Ryan_LX (Member # 7089) on :
 
Thanks for all the info and feedback, honestly I dont think my setup would gain much from. It really comes down to the fact that I'm bored and want to switch some thins up.
 
Posted by SantaClara_Lx (Member # 9488) on :
 
How will they run with out a tune
 
Posted by Camara90 (Member # 134) on :
 
I have ran plenty of longtubes without a tune, you could see some low RPM issues like at idle because the 02's are not getting enough heat. After 2800 rpm's the O2's are ignored, and you rely strictly on the ECU though. So no issues with Longtubes and WOT.
 
Posted by copcar (Member # 10113) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Camara90:
I have ran plenty of longtubes without a tune, you could see some low RPM issues like at idle because the 02's are not getting enough heat. After 2800 rpm's the O2's are ignored, and you rely strictly on the ECU though. So no issues with Longtubes and WOT.
No. not exactly. The ecu is in open loop until the o2's warm up. After that it will stay in closed loop until the ecu detects WOT. During its time in closed loop the computer will wright and rewright its adaptive strategy for WOT operation. So yes, you are still monitering and relying on the imput from the o2's regardless of RPM until WOT is read by the ecu.
 
Posted by Camara90 (Member # 134) on :
 
There is definitely conflicting information out there. If you speak to Rick at AFM he states that the O2's do not read anything after 2800 rpm on our cars. There is also other information that claims different. Here is a good read that I had seen before that states otherwise. http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/EECIVInnerWorkings/

from this link.

Adaptive Control There is much confusion about how Adaptive Control works especially at WOT. Adaptive control, according to Mike Wesley and Charles Probst, is always functional – at WOT and anything less than WOT. The difference is that in open loop and at less than WOT, this feature monitors O2 sensors and writes correction trim factors to KAM, which are applied to the base table value for future calculations. This is accomplished by varying injector pulse width. The rate at which Adaptive Control writes these correction factors to KAM is slow enough to filter out short duration upsets in the mixture. Short-term closed loop corrections are written to Long-Term Adaptive Strategy KAM if they are repeatedly seen out-of-spec by the O2 sensors . At WOT the Adaptive Control still functions but it does not update (or write) correction factors to KAM for application to the base tables – it defaults to the already stored trim values, if any have been written, for the load and engine temperature experienced in the WOT load range.
 




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