This is topic Car was a big dissapointment at the strip..whats the next best step? in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
well, I'm rewriting after I lost my post

I ran it three times and both times it ran 100.x mph. Both runs were with 2.2x 60fts. The 1st run I shifted at 6500 (I know way to high) and the 2nd run I shifted at 6k. Is that way to high? The third run I was going to shift at 5500 but the odd thing about this run is that when I hit it in 1st it spun/went sideways bad and then I short shifted second and continued to spin/sideways. I just slopped it into third and ended up still at 96mph with a horribly slow shift into third and not that on it.

I was hoping for something in the 104-108mph range as that seems to be the norm with my mod list if not higher. COuld it be a tune issue? I had to stick with the stock fuel pressure regulator and I have 30lbs on the stock computer untuned. It seems to run ok and usually idles good.

Any help/pointers are welcome. I'm hoping a dyno tune will make it run correct? Car is a 1990 gt with the stock bottom end.

Here is the mod list:
TFS twisted wedge heads box stock
TFS track heat intake upper/lower
TFS stage 1 cam
Trick flow 1.6 roller rockers
30lb ford motorsport injectors
6.75" hardened TFS push rods
Accufab 65mm TB
Pro-M 75mm MAS
Trickflow standard height valve covers
walbro 255lph fuel pump high pressure
bbk equal length shorties
mac prochamber
dronemaster 2ch catback
3.73s
kumho 275's on rear with 17x9 everyonehasthem wheels
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
gotta be a tune issue, your car shoulda run that with gears and bolts-ons and a stock motor.

timing, fuel pressure, vacuum leaks, even firing order are things I'd check first.
 

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Posted by Fast477Mach1 (Member # 2559) on :
 
This might be a little off but roller rockers on these things are extremely touchy. I've lost power on mine by getting them 1/4 turn to far. Speaking of which I'm having that problem right now.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
30lb injectors + 40psi base fuel pressure is WAY too rich for that setup. Get that straightened out & it'll feel much better & run harder.
But...with that combo & an average weight Foxbody, I'd say the best MPH you'll see will be a 106.xx.

That cam is just....weak. Look me up when you're in the market for something with a little more Umph.
 

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Posted by KCmustangboy (Member # 1927) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
30lb injectors + 40psi base fuel pressure is WAY too rich for that setup. Get that straightened out & it'll feel much better & run harder.
But...with that combo & an average weight Foxbody, I'd say the best MPH you'll see will be a 106.xx.

That cam is just....weak. Look me up when you're in the market for something with a little more Umph.

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Jon runs that cam on a stock bottom end 302. best pass 11.92 How is that weak?
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
How heavy is Jon's coupe again?
Oh, & what heads are on that thing?
Lastly.....why isn't his stage 1 for sale with the heads/intake?
Nobody aside from Jon has had to notch the pistons with a TFS stage 1 & TW heads. There is a TON of room under the valves with that cam.....no matter how much was milled off the heads.
 

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Posted by Glenn (Member # 520) on :
 
Rick let me know when you decide to get it dynod, and tune, we'll go together.
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
93pony the cam IS a trick flow stage 1, trust me TEA fucked up and cut TOO much off the heads. To get the intake to sit right I had to cut the the intake .180 on each side and .060 off the bottom. If you want when i pull the motor apart you cam check the cam for me.

[ April 09, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: jmcclesk ]
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
jmcclesk- Don't even try to logic or reason with the guy. I heard him say Sadaam lost the war because his tanks didn't have custom cams

The Rick- A few things I can think of...

A) Driver (can you post the entire timeslip?

B) Driver

C) Did I mention Driver?

D) After we get the previous 3 mods down, like mentioned above, dropping fuel pressure wouldn't hurt.

E) What is your timing at? At what point does it start to ping?

F) Do have 'basic' mods like pullies, 180 thermo, and a K&N right?

Also, be weary of a guy that blames your cam as the reason your TFS heads/intake/cam 5.O ran 100 mph.

[ April 09, 2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jmcclesk:
93pony the cam IS a trick flow stage 1, trust me TEA fucked up and cut TOO much off the heads. To get the intake to sit right I had to cut the the intake .180 on each side and .060 off the bottom. If you want when i pull the motor apart you cam check the cam for me.

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Really...I'd Love to see that cam. Let me know when you plan on pulling it & I'll help you.
How much P2V clearance did you have BTW? Did you have to cut both the intake & exhaust? Do you know what centerline the cam was installed on?
I ask for a few reasons....mainly, if the cam was installed too far advanced/retarded, you'd only have to cut the intake or the exhaust...not both.
 

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Posted by PseudoCobra (Member # 1689) on :
 
Possibly your differential needs to be checked to make sure you're not doing a one legger if you are getting sidewayz like that.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Jon...you're in my area right?
Mind leaving the cam in there so I can degree it before you take it out?
Sometimes there's factory defects... Case in point, yellow94gt's E303 measured 222/220 110lsa.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
honestly setting it to 40 PSI w/30#'s is not that far off.

I've had my best results around 37 PSI (vac off) with 30#'ers.

More fuel is always better than less fuel when you've got a new combo.

Everybody told me to run ~32 PSI on my combo and that would be about 4-5 mph slower than what I currently run.

And Shaun needs to STFU because his twice-custom cam'd Twin turbo 331 doesn't ET as well as Jon's stock shortblock 302 w/o a power adder! LMAO!
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
Oh one more thing the trick flow intake sits high. How well is the port mach at the heads/intake. I would say the A/F is TOO rich. check it with a wide band.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
Jon...you're in my area right?
Mind leaving the cam in there so I can degree it before you take it out?
Sometimes there's factory defects... Case in point, yellow94gt's E303 measured 222/220 110lsa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
Jon...you're in my area right?
Mind leaving the cam in there so I can degree it before you take it out?
Sometimes there's factory defects... Case in point, yellow94gt's E303 measured 222/220 110lsa.

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One more time. Come on Jon, let me degree that bitch.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jmcclesk:
Sure, no problem the valve events were within 1 degree of the spec card. I didnt belive it eather I had another mechanic check and he came up with the same # By all rights there should have been .060-.080 clearance on the intake. Thats why i always check. I have seen as much as .035-.045 clerance with the same setup's on diffrent short blocks.

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I've never seen a TFS1 cam run as hard as you. I'd like to see Exactly what the specs come out to under my dial indicator.

So....when am I coming over to do this?
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Are you blind or just a bias hater? Look at Jim's car... damn near same combo (TFS 1 cam, ported TW's) that would run the same MPH if the cars weighed the same

[ April 09, 2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
I only had to cut the intake. after the cut if i rember correctly .100 exuast and .080 on the intake. i had approx .020-.025 on the intake before the cut.
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
when do you want to come over????
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Jim runs 1.7's & didn't have to cut the pistons. Jims car is also heavier.

Having to cut that much on the intake is excessive. The cams 221 lobe is weak....about the same as the E303's 220 lobe. If installed as designed the Intake lobe would be at .050 lift at 4.5 degrees before TDC & closing. That's .080 lift at the valve....& closing.
Having to notch only the intake suggests that this cam must be at least 10 degrees advanced....at least. The ramp rate of this cam is in the area of 20-25 degrees per .050 lift.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jmcclesk:
when do you want to come over????

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I'm free all day Friday & Saturday before Grudgenight.
 

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Posted by KCmustangboy (Member # 1927) on :
 
Dam Jon I didn't mean to start anything... Don't rip the motor apart yet! lol I still want it.
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
Jim runs 1.7's & didn't have to cut the pistons.

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Holy shit, that changes everything!!!!!!! Sorry, I was mistaken, I thought they ran the pretty much the same damn combo
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
I am doing a motor swap this weekend. if you want help it will have to be another time if you want to do it by yourself have at it (saturday) valve events in 3.0 btdc open 38.0 abdc close
ex 49.0 bbdc opens (4.0)btdc if the valves events are within 1-2 degrees how can the cam be advanced 10 degrees ????
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jmcclesk:
I am doing a motor swap this weekend. if you want help it will have to be another time if you want to do it by yourself have at it (saturday) valve events in 3.0 btdc open 38.0 abdc close
ex 49.0 bbdc opens (4.0)btdc if the valves events are within 1-2 degrees how can the cam be advanced 10 degrees ????

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...I'll wait till you plan on taring the motor down. Don't really feel like putting it all back together after I degree it.
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
I have done them with the head on Its not that hard.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jmcclesk:
I have done them with the head on Its not that hard.

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Oh yeah, I know...I made my own piston stop out of an old sparkplug.
But...with the heads off it's a bit more accurate.
I'm also building an engine this weekend. But, I'd spare 2-3 hours to degree your cam...
Ah hell. All I'll have to do is pull off the dampner, upper intake, VC, & a few other things.

Alright, I'll do it this weekend!
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Do I have to put it back together???
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 
I have a piston stop, and all the tools have at it.
 

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Posted by KCmustangboy (Member # 1927) on :
 
why must we take apart the motor...I really really want it
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jmcclesk:
I have a piston stop, and all the tools have at it.

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Check your PMs.
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
Here is the entire run sawson:
run1 run2
r/t 1.000 .716
60' 2.212 2.236
330 5.936 5.965
1/8 9.002 9.049
mph 80.26 80.26
1000 11.674 11.708
1/4 13.924 13.961
mph 100.31 100.11

I know the RT's arn't great but I really dont concern myself much with them since all I cared about is ET/mph.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rick:
Here is the entire run sawson:
run1 run2
r/t 1.000 .716
60' 2.212 2.236
330 5.936 5.965
1/8 9.002 9.049
mph 80.26 80.26
1000 11.674 11.708
1/4 13.924 13.961
mph 100.31 100.11

I know the RT's arn't great but I really dont concern myself much with them since all I cared about is ET/mph.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rick:
Here is the entire run sawson:
run1 run2
r/t 1.000 .716
60' 2.212 2.236
330 5.936 5.965
1/8 9.002 9.049
mph 80.26 80.26
1000 11.674 11.708
1/4 13.924 13.961
mph 100.31 100.11

I know the RT's arn't great but I really dont concern myself much with them since all I cared about is ET/mph.

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I can see right away you're in need of a tune. You should be gaining 22mph from 1/8th to 1/4.
I'd definately try dropping the FP....& messing with timing.

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I believe the car is at 12 degrees timing.

To be clear: I need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to adjust fuel pressure right? haha, see how little I know about this shit?
 

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Posted by FasterDamnit (Member # 442) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rick:
To be clear: I need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to adjust fuel pressure right? haha, see how little I know about this shit?

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That's why you ask question at places like this. we may give each other a hard time, but we are serious about making power and helping ohters to do the same. Yes, get a Kirban.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Yeah, you need an adjustable regulator.
& bump that timing up to 14-15! There's a MPH or 2 right there!
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
I have a new aeromotive but it didn't fit with the intake Where to order a kirban?

Hey, if you guys ever need home audio/home theater help, look me up...that's my profession for about 4 years now.
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
Yeah, you need an adjustable regulator.
& bump that timing up to 14-15! There's a MPH or 2 right there!

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rick:

quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
Yeah, you need an adjustable regulator.
& bump that timing up to 14-15! There's a MPH or 2 right there!

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Is that still safe on 91 octane? I don't hear any pinging now but the car is damn loud.

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quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:

F) Do have 'basic' mods like pullies, 180 thermo, and a K&N right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Sounds like your car just needs some basic old fashion 5.O tuning.

Get your idle problem taken care of?

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No, I actually didn't do anything yet. I'm planning on buying the TPS sensor tomorrow since I actually get a day off for once. I got my boss to let me go early today so I could go drag racing

Damnit, this is what I hate about the car hobby...it takes to much damn time
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
About running rich/lean: my car does smell kinda like gas a little when I'm going through a drive through etc...is that a sign either way?
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Really only if you're rich/lean above 4,000 RPM makes a difference on your trap speed, so while your nose may be right at idle/cruise.... you simply need a wide band O2 sensor above 4,000 RPM.

I saw a NA 5.O on the dyno that was so lean, it picked up 35 rwhp from richening up the air fuel ratio
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
Yah, i've been hoping bill does the dyno day for about a month now

*hinthint*
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
The guy who gained 35 rwhp ( forgot his name, he was in Strictly 5.O had had edelbrock heads) could have gained about 30 rwhp of it with old fashion 5.O tuning. Don't take your car on the dyno until your bugs are all sorted out and you're running 105+ mph trap speeds.
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
The guy who gained 35 rwhp ( forgot his name, he was in Strictly 5.O had had edelbrock heads) could have gained about 30 rwhp of it with old fashion 5.O tuning. Don't take your car on the dyno until your bugs are all sorted out and you're running 105+ mph trap speeds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rick:
I have a new aeromotive but it didn't fit with the intake Where to order a kirban?

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dude, don't stress, that is really common, the Kirban won't fit right either probably.

loosen the 2 screws holding the fuel rail down, and *gently* bend the fuel rails out of the way of the intake.

edit: Also, don't stress about your TPS, just make sure idle is below 1.0 volt (0.8 or 0.9)

[ April 10, 2003, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
shade- well, maybe I'll give it a go when I go pick it back up today and try to make it fit again
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
btw, a street by my parents house has the name SHADE TREE

if your ever up north in santa rosa area, let me know. You can go steal it
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 

 

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Posted by Norcalbmxer (Member # 235) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PseudoCobra:
Possibly your differential needs to be checked to make sure you're not doing a one legger if you are getting sidewayz like that.

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when you have a one legger, you do not get sideways, when you have a duex legger, you do get sideways
 

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Posted by The Nick (Member # 2244) on :
 
haha... maybe I'm the only person that will find this funny, but I've got just about the exact same set up as you except I've got 70mm TB and 24#ers. The Rick... The Nick... ok, that might have been lame.

Anyways, it seems like the stock fuel pressure with 30# injectors might be running a little rich. I'd definitely invest in a fpr. When I got mine, I adjusted it to 37ish when it was at 44, and it felt a lot better. Smelled a lot better too. lol. Good luck with the car man!

Edit: I didn't realize this thread was 5 pages long and this had already been pointed out. Sorry.

[ April 11, 2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: The Nick ]
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 
the nick- i hate your name and your 106mph
 

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Posted by The Nick (Member # 2244) on :
 
haha... sorry. I'll try and run it next time with the handbrake up.

Did you get that fpr yet?
 

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Posted by The Rick (Member # 327) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Nick:
haha... sorry. I'll try and run it next time with the handbrake up.

Did you get that fpr yet?

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I actually have a aeromotive that is new that I'm going to give a shot at putting in myself. Here comes something broken
 

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Posted by Fast477Mach1 (Member # 2559) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Norcalbmxer:

quote:

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Originally posted by PseudoCobra:
Possibly your differential needs to be checked to make sure you're not doing a one legger if you are getting sidewayz like that.

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when you have a one legger, you do not get sideways, when you have a duex legger, you do get sideways

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