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Author
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Topic: What brake setup for open track?
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
 
 
Just got back from T-Hill and discovered that my Cobra brake setup is far inferior to the potential of the driveline and suspension. In short, boiled the brake fluid and have dismal stopping response even when not overheated.
What brakes are you running and why? I'm looking into a 4-6piston setup; Stoptech, Brembo and Wilwood, in that order. Also curious if it's even worth upgrading components to get my existing Cobra brakes to hold up.
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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4IDFOX
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Member # 9921
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posted
I run Alcon calipers and like them. They are 14"
I think you might want to try new track worthy pads and change your brake fluid to some that has a higher boiling point. The cmc guys raced on those for years and the only problem they had was they would spread after a while.
Ps. Use the brakes less. They just slow you down.
Troy
Posts: 375 | From: Redding CA | Registered: Apr 2010
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SydeWaySix
CAFords OG
Member # 3596
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What brake fluid and pads are you using? From what I have heard, cobra brakes ate actually pretty damn good if you have them properly setup, ie: track pads and high-temp fluid
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2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.
Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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SF Coupe
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Member # 1810
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posted
Cobra brakes can take a lot abuse if you have the right fluid, race pads, and cooling ducts. I like ATE, and some type of race pad. Hawk and Carbotech are good brands to look at for race pads. I laid down some pretty quick times in time trials with the cobra brakes and even won a couple of races with them. If I were you I would try what has been recommended before dropping $2000 on a set of brakes. I use Stoptechs now and they are great brakes, in a different league than the cobra brakes but I don't think they are necessary for track days or even if you get to the level of time trials.
Posts: 1082 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2002
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
Thanks for the replies! I am running stock 10th anniversary cobra calipers front and rear with the stock pads as they came from Ford Racing. And I have stock rotors with Castrol Gt LMA fluid. With a pad and fluid upgrade, and possibly ducting, would that make a noticeable difference?
If I can upgrade what I have now and get it to work, I would love to. I just don't want to spend time and money polishing a turd. I tend to err on the side of overkill ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ April 09, 2012, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: phildog ]
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Blind
2.3L
CAFords OG
Member # 3052
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posted
you need to run pads better suited to the heat seen at the track.
A set of hawk blues in the front brakes for track days with a set of dedicated rotors would be a huge upgrade in terms of braking power and resistance to heat.
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89 LX Notchback ex 4cyl, 14psi
02 Harley F150, 15psi
Posts: 8521 | From: Fairfield | Registered: Jul 2003
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v-town coupe
fordologist
Member # 2771
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posted
since I plan on doing some limited open track and mainly some auto X with my car. what fluid do you guys recommend? im running baer 2pc rotors all the way around, baer t4 calipers and 13" rotors up front with the baer supplied pads ,and in the back im using a cobra single piston caliper with the FMS supplied pads on the baer 2pc 11.80" rotor.im using a CNC dual master setup where I have two separate cylinders one for front and one for rear. the car will be mainly street driven but plan on some weekend events here and there and would prefer to use better fluid now then later.I know the back is somewhat "under braked" but its going to have to work for now.
Posts: 4597 | From: the V-town | Registered: May 2003
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straightliner1
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Member # 2679
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posted
I was there at T-Hill also...
Something isn't right with your setup. I have 2 buddies running full weight SN cars and they are using Cobra 2 piston calipers with zero issues. We all run Hawk blue pads, and good fluid. I use Motul and they use some higher end OTS stuff. Besides meling the dust boots, all is well after 2 hard days in Thunderhill.
V-Town - The 2 piece rotors are really overkill for entry level and even intermediate tracking. I've weighed the aluminum-hat 2 piece Brembo rotors against the one piece design and they are damn near equal. While the aluminum hat saves weight, the rotor itself is usually thicker for better heat dissapation, and winds up weighing the same as the cheaper one-piece. Until you start cracking the cheaper 1-piece design, I recommend you spend your coin elsewhere.
[ April 09, 2012, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: straightliner1 ]
Posts: 484 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Apr 2003
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v-town coupe
fordologist
Member # 2771
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by straightliner1:
I was there at T-Hill also...
Something isn't right with your setup. I have 2 buddies running full weight SN cars and they are using Cobra 2 piston calipers with zero issues. We all run Hawk blue pads, and good fluid. I use Motul and they use some higher end OTS stuff. Besides meling the dust boots, all is well after 2 hard days in Thunderhill.
V-Town - The 2 piece rotors are really overkill for entry level and even intermediate tracking. I've weighed the aluminum-hat 2 piece Brembo rotors against the one piece design and they are damn near equal. While the aluminum hat saves weight, the rotor itself is usually thicker for better heat dissapation, and winds up weighing the same as the cheaper one-piece. Until you start cracking the cheaper 1-piece design, I recommend you spend your coin elsewhere.
had no choice in the matter. the front end setup im now using on the 67 comes standard with 2-pc rotors. i think they do this so they only have to come up with a custom hat and use a std bolt on baer rotor rather then custom 1 off rotors. i only got the backs in 2-pc cause I got a hell of a deal and they were still new in the box plus since this car will hit some show time I wanted the front and rear to match for asthetic reasons. plus with the price i got on the rear I couldnt go wrong. that was the had I was dealt, so it is what it is.
any fluid recommendations?
Posts: 4597 | From: the V-town | Registered: May 2003
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
I was there on Friday with the City Tech Auto Body group. Temp gunned the rotors after about a 15 min session and found 440 degrees. That was with a friend(NASA pro race license holder) driving. Pedal went to the floor going into turn 1. So I have some work to do.
Anyone run manual brakes? I have the MM kit on my car.
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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SteveL
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Member # 1241
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posted
With street pads, the Castrol GT fluid is probably fine. Most likely, the pads will overheat before the fluid boils.
With race pads, ATE Super Blue is maybe the best bang for the buck at $16-$20 per liter but Motul, Wilwood, etc are all good.
440 deg is not too hot for a race pad but at the upper end for a street pad.
Posts: 578 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2002
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straightliner1
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Member # 2679
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posted
I run Motul fluid with my Hawk Blues and Brembo Cobra R calipers. That thing stops RIGHT NOW and no overheating issues. The stuff is expensive and it's super sensitive to moisture. Brakes likely need to be bled more often I actually do... (and don't crack the seal on the $30/pint bottle until you're ready to pour it in).
Posts: 484 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Apr 2003
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
Motul was the direction I was leaning as well.
My concern past the pedal going to the floor was the lack of 'right now' stopping power. I hot lapped into a 2500lb AE86 Corolla with 200rwhp and 4 piston Willwood brakes all the way around and was astounded with the response. Like night and day, throw-out-the-anchor braking. Will a better pad make that difference in response?
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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SydeWaySix
CAFords OG
Member # 3596
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posted
I run Motul fluid and Hawk blues with Cobra calipers on a full weight 98 cobra and have had no issues. I started off with ordinary street pads and at T-hill I started to feel a little brake fade. Using race pads definitely makes a huge difference in stopping power! Once they're heated up, they bite effortlessly.
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2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.
Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
Are you running those Hawk blue pads on the street as well? This is not a daily driver, but it does get driven to and from the track.
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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SydeWaySix
CAFords OG
Member # 3596
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by phildog:
Are you running those Hawk blue pads on the street as well? This is not a daily driver, but it does get driven to and from the track.
Yes, I drive it on the street to and from the track. Other than that I very rarely drive the car on the street.
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2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.
Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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straightliner1
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Member # 2679
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posted
While you can drive race pads on the street, and I am guilty of doing so, they shed off a LOT of dust, are really noisy and more importantly, they wear the rotors fast when not up to operating temperatures. If you drive your car daily, get a dedicated set of rotors for the track and for the street. If you only occasionally drive it on the street and indeed drive it to the track, leave the race pads on. Just be warned, you'll be cleaning your wheels often. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ April 10, 2012, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: straightliner1 ]
Posts: 484 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Apr 2003
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straightliner1
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Member # 2679
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by phildog:
... was astounded with the response. Like night and day, throw-out-the-anchor braking. Will a better pad make that difference in response?
In a word - yes
Posts: 484 | From: Sacramento | Registered: Apr 2003
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
Thanks for the replies! Sounds like I can get thIs thing to stop with some upgrades to my existing combo. I'll be back on the track soon! I must say, that track day was an addicting experience. ![[burnout]](graemlins/burnout.gif)
So run race pads and a dedicated set of rotors all the way around, or front only? And if I'm buying rotors, what do you reccomend?
[ April 10, 2012, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: phildog ]
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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SydeWaySix
CAFords OG
Member # 3596
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by phildog:
Thanks for the replies! Sounds like I can get thIs thing to stop with some upgrades to my existing combo. I'll be back on the track soon! I must say, that track day was an addicting experience.
I take it this was your first time on track? What car are you running? I felt the same way when I started last year...I've been an addict ever since ![[dance]](graemlins/dance.gif)
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2013 Boss 302 #356. Performance White. Stock.
1965 Fastback GT Restored to stock spec.
Posts: 9882 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Dec 2002
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Blind
2.3L
CAFords OG
Member # 3052
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by phildog:
Thanks for the replies! Sounds like I can get thIs thing to stop with some upgrades to my existing combo. I'll be back on the track soon! I must say, that track day was an addicting experience.
So run race pads and a dedicated set of rotors all the way around, or front only? And if I'm buying rotors, what do you reccomend?
race pads are only needed on the front, especially with just street tires.
fwiw, I cooked a set of OE ford front cobra brake pads at california speedway (140mph to ~70mph at the transition from the oval to the infield). The brakes did not fade 1 bit all day until the pedal went to the floor and I had nothing. That was my first time doing an open track with r-comp tires and they completely changed the way I was driving.
A good pressure bleed with good fluid (I run ate super blue and/or gold, I alternate back and forth so I know the fluid is completely replaced when I pressure flush) can make all the difference your car needs.
When properly bled, the stock cobra brakes are really powerful, combine that with a set of hawk blues up front and you'll be wiping boogers off the windshield if you hit the pedal hard enough.
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89 LX Notchback ex 4cyl, 14psi
02 Harley F150, 15psi
Posts: 8521 | From: Fairfield | Registered: Jul 2003
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phildog
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Member # 1214
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posted
Only my second track day in over 10 years. Enjoyed my first session years ago( 2001 or so) but at the time I still liked autocross more. After completely rebuilding the car (white '86 hatch) this event changed my mind about my direction with car. It is far too nice to gut out, but I have in mind some tasteful mods to get the car more track able.
Posts: 1554 | From: 510 | Registered: Apr 2002
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SF Coupe
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Member # 1810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by phildog:
Only my second track day in over 10 years. Enjoyed my first session years ago( 2001 or so) but at the time I still liked autocross more. After completely rebuilding the car (white '86 hatch) this event changed my mind about my direction with car. It is far too nice to gut out, but I have in mind some tasteful mods to get the car more track able.
You sound like me 5 years ago. My 90 coupe was nearly show quality when I bought it. Now it's a gutted race car.
For brake upgrades here's what I would do:
ATE super blue fluid. It's cheap and it works. I've never had an issue with it even in 35 minute races. If you boil this stuff you are using the brakes too much. Hawk blues are a good entry level track pad for the front and the cost is reasonable. For the rear try something like the HP+. You don't want to have too much brake pad torque difference front to rear or the rears won't be doing anything for you. I had good success with Centric Premium rotors, plain faced. Almost all rotors are made in China now, even the ones that come in the boxes with the fancy names on them. Centric are made in China but they lasted the longest for me before cracking. You will notice a dramatic difference with this setup.
Posts: 1082 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2002
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DEVERO2
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Member # 6155
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posted
Im about due for a rotor/pad change on my 2002. I have the roush/alcon 14 inch fronts and 13 inc rears. the car is track only and is on hoosier R6. the only place I have found rotors is stage3motorsports.com. anyone know anywhere else to find these?
Posts: 641 | From: sacramento | Registered: Oct 2005
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SteveL
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Member # 1241
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posted
There's been some discussion on fnsweet about finding replacement rotors for the 14" Alcons. Try searching that site.
Posts: 578 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2002
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