|
Author
|
Topic: 331 vs 347
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
 
 
Ok guys here it is, i am moving states here soon to start a new job, i will have more money to play around with, and i have a few questions. i know the there is no replacement for displacement, but i heard that a 347 can be stress full on the side walls, and a 331 is capable of the same #'s with some more boost. I made up my mind not to do a 351 windsor, cuz if i did it would be a 427 windsor with boost and i would prob kill myself(lol). my top end will be afr 205's, spyder intake, and 12-15 psi. also, DSS shortblock or different set up and do it myself(not the machine work)?
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
I know this will be expensive, so any helpful input will be greatly appreciated. GO FAST! SHAKE N BAKE!!
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
ugotsmoked
¯
Member # 6069
|
posted
Run a 331, 347 have oil ring issuses and arent as reliable as a 331. I would run a DSS shortblock, 8.5 to 1 compression, AFR 205's, plus your top end. Contact Anderson Motorsports for the correct cam for your application. Make sure to have everything tuned by a professional.
--------------------
02 GT - Fully built and blown - RIP
'00 C5 Frc - Cammed and tuned - sold
66 Nova - Restored - 6.0 In the works
Posts: 1585 | From: Rocklin, Ca. | Registered: Sep 2005
| :
|
|
iceman302
¯
Member # 7180
|
posted
Besides the previously mentioned oil control issue, the 331 is more durable because the pistons have more meat above the ring land. They are definitely better for boosted/nitrous applications.
--------------------
'65 Mustang Fastback
Posts: 4171 | From: Rancho Murieta | Registered: Oct 2006
| :
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by ugotsmoked:
Run a 331, 347 have oil ring issuses and arent as reliable as a 331. I would run a DSS shortblock, 8.5 to 1 compression, AFR 205's, plus your top end. Contact Anderson Motorsports for the correct cam for your application. Make sure to have everything tuned by a professional.
Myths.... There are no more issues with the 347's & oild control. The issues came about due to the oil ring intersecting the Pin. This was solved by simply adding a support ring under the oil rings.....years ago. Since then there is also another solution. Use 331 pistons with a 5.315 rod instead of a 5.4 rod. This moves the oil ring up, out of the way of the wrist pin. I have had ZERO oil control problems with any of the 347's I've built. I personally have a 331 in my turbo stang & regret not going to a 347. My wife's 347 runs SOOO much stronger....I could only imagine what it would run like with boost.
Skip the DSS shortblock. AFR205's with 12-15lbs of boost is too much for a stock block. If you're going to spend the $$$, do it right the first time & buy a Dart or R302 block. You'll be money ahead in the long run.
There's an old saying.... You don't stick a $200 rotating assembly in a $2000 block, & you don't stick a $2000 rotating assembly in a $200 block! Either way & you'll end up paying for it.....split the block, or shove a rod through the block.
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
I love this info, and another qusetion, i never planned on running a stock bare block. so witch block is best for my set up? A4, DART, etc?
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
I know some of you are thinking why not buy a 03 04 cobra, its cuz of my love for the fox bodies and 302's. thats doesnt mean i wont have a cobra someday. GO FAST!! SHAKE N BAKE!!!!
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
A4 & R302's require more machine work when new than a Dart. Unless you can find one used, it'll be cheaper to go with the Dart (New).
The Dart Sportsman can handle FAR more power than you'll be pushing. (1500+). Unlike the A4 & R302 it has billet steel main caps. It can also be bored over 4.185"+. I've seen some bored to 4.250".
If you're going to go with a Dart, you can also opt for the 4.125" bore. With a 3.4" stroke you'll end up with a 363ci motor. Or, with a 3.25" stroke a 347ci. A larger bore will give you more power by allowing the heads to flow more (unshrouding the valves).
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
Done right, a Fox with 331+ci & 15psi will run faster than an 03/04 Cobra with a KB/Whipple & 20psi.
Power to weight + displacement.
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
WOW, This great info, so if i do a dart block what is the best rotating assy(remember money might be an issue at this point but not for quality)? I can work it out. GO FAST!! SHAKE N BAKE!!!!
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
Any 4340 Forged crankshaft will be fine.
The vast majority of the aftermarket pistons will be fine as well. I'd opt for a wrist pin upgrade from Cast to at the very least a tool-steel pin. Better yet a taper-wall tool-steel pin, but that's really not neccessary unless you do a lot of compression braking. (road corse)
Get a quality Forged Rod. I-beams are stronger given the same weight as an H-beam.
A cheap 1000hp capable rotating assembly can be had for under $2000 shipped from Probe industries (CHP). Just one of their Forged blower kits with upgrades.
4340 Forged Crankshaft
Lightweight 'I' beam rods
14 or 20cc dished pistons with Tool steel pin upgrade (Probe doesn't sell Taper-wall pins, but you can get them from Ross for $200 a set)
Hellfire rings (recomended for boost, but not 100% neccessary)
The kits also come with bearings. You can upgrade to performance (race) bearings as well.
Or, you can buy the entire shortblock assemembed/blueprinted/balanced from Brian at ADPerformance for under $5000 with the above in a Dart sportsman block.
Not exactly cheap, but nobody said going fast was cheap! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
white50steve
¯
Member # 5887
|
posted
world makes a shoetblock in their man o war block for 4100 from summit
Posts: 161 | From: south san francisco | Registered: Jul 2005
| :
|
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
I think the the ADperformance shortblock it will be, if not(meaning i want to do it myself for the ford knowledge) then i will do the 363, dart block(new),well not new if it is punched to a 363. 331 rods. ok now what deck height(prob zero), the cam is going to a custom grind(not sure from ware yet or if you have any preferance in cam), and what compression piston and dish size.(remember 12-15 psi but capable of more)? more Q's to come, i will post them as they come up.
[ November 11, 2006, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: 93mustang50 ]
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
93mustang50
¯
Member # 6642
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by ugotsmoked:
Run a 331, 347 have oil ring issuses and arent as reliable as a 331. I would run a DSS shortblock, 8.5 to 1 compression, AFR 205's, plus your top end. Contact Anderson Motorsports for the correct cam for your application. Make sure to have everything tuned by a professional.
I am a professional(lol), if it was a carb setup. a screw driver and timing light is all i need.
--------------------
93GT 306 H/C/I supercharged
06 Cummins 6spd
90 GT 5sdp daily driver HCI
16 Hellcat Charger
91GT aod(sold)
88GT5spd(totaled)
Posts: 213 | From: Vacaville | Registered: Mar 2006
| :
|
|
STREETFIGHTER50
unregistered
|
posted
347's-So since the oil control issue is done with, which is preferred for a more reliable, naturally aspirated driver/weekend warrior? The 331 pistons w/5.315 rods or the usual 347 pistons w/5.400 rods?
:
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
The top 2 EFI N/A 347's on the site run 10's. One runs a 5.4" rod & the other a 5.315 with 331 pistons. Both make over 440RWHP. Both run VicJr heads & VicEFI intakes with reverse-split custom camshafts, longtubes & 3" exhaust. Both seem to have zero issues with oil control, streetability, cooling, etc, etc. Both have a few thousand miles on the motors. Both go on long cruises without any issues. One car still has all the accessories minus the smog pump. (A/C, PS, etc)
Personally, I like the short rod setups. The one drawback to the 331 piston/5.315 rod combo is that the total piston/rod length is .010" shorter than the 347 piston/5.400 rod. So, if the block is 'zero decked', the 5.4/347 combo will be at zero, the 331/5.315 combo will be 'in' the hole .010" & will have slightly less compression unless you use a thinner head gasket or deck the block further....or use custom pistons.
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
Yellow94GT
Mr. 60 FT
Member # 431
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
The top 2 EFI N/A 347's on the site run 10's. One runs a 5.4" rod & the other a 5.315 with 331 pistons. Both make over 440RWHP. Both run VicJr heads & VicEFI intakes with reverse-split custom camshafts, longtubes & 3" exhaust. Both seem to have zero issues with oil control, streetability, cooling, etc, etc. Both have a few thousand miles on the motors. Both go on long cruises without any issues. One car still has all the accessories minus the smog pump. (A/C, PS, etc)
One of them makes over 460 RWHP. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
And I'm only minus the smog pump and the A/C. You make it sound like I have nothing on my accessory drive.
--------------------
AED
1994 GT Bucket that will likely never run
1999 SLOLEEN Twin Turbo Coyote
2008 F250 580 RWHP 1129 RWTQ
Posts: 5990 | From: Cameron Park, Ca | Registered: Sep 2001
| :
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yellow94GT:
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
The top 2 EFI N/A 347's on the site run 10's. One runs a 5.4" rod & the other a 5.315 with 331 pistons. Both make over 440RWHP. Both run VicJr heads & VicEFI intakes with reverse-split custom camshafts, longtubes & 3" exhaust. Both seem to have zero issues with oil control, streetability, cooling, etc, etc. Both have a few thousand miles on the motors. Both go on long cruises without any issues. One car still has all the accessories minus the smog pump. (A/C, PS, etc)
One of them makes over 460 RWHP.
And I'm only minus the smog pump and the A/C. You make it sound like I have nothing on my accessory drive.
Electric water pump too.
So...just an alternator & power steering pump right?
Was the 466RW with or without the accessory belt.
The 442 was WITH the belt turning the alternator, water pump, A/C, & Power steering....& no fan either. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Hehehe
Aaaahh, but who cares. What matters is both these (AED built/tuned) cars are in the 10's on motor. ![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
Yellow94GT
Mr. 60 FT
Member # 431
|
posted
There is an idler pulley on the water pump!
--------------------
AED
1994 GT Bucket that will likely never run
1999 SLOLEEN Twin Turbo Coyote
2008 F250 580 RWHP 1129 RWTQ
Posts: 5990 | From: Cameron Park, Ca | Registered: Sep 2001
| :
|
|
2stangs69-91
¯
Member # 1951
|
posted
LOL if you "correctly" Zero deck a block you do it after you have measured the deck heigth. 347 motors are awsome. The two fastest setups on our board are boosted 331 combos ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) .
--------------------
69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
| :
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
LOL if you "correctly" Zero deck a block you do it after you have measured the deck heigth. 347 motors are awsome. The two fastest setups on our board are boosted 331 combos .
True, what I meant was the 347/5.4 setup comes out to 8.200", the 331/5.315 comes out to 8.190".
The fastest:
339 25+psi
342 20+psi
408 N2O
331 20+psi
302 18psi I think
283 16+psi
333 13psi
383 15+psi + N2O
283 22psi
etc, etc
I could only imagine what would happen if someone pushed 15+psi boost through one of the top N/A motors on the site!
[ November 13, 2006, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
2stangs69-91
¯
Member # 1951
|
posted
I think you guy's should do it . or a nice 250 shot of NOS. If I had a 302 based dart block I would build a 347 at least.
--------------------
69 Mustang on hold
1991 LX hatch getting a make over
1994 F150 4X4 351
2006 Yamaha V-max 1200 Modded
Posts: 3711 | From: Redding | Registered: Oct 2002
| :
|
|
Yellow94GT
Mr. 60 FT
Member # 431
|
posted
My next round of mods will be a better block, rods and crank. Then a nice little 200 shot. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
AED
1994 GT Bucket that will likely never run
1999 SLOLEEN Twin Turbo Coyote
2008 F250 580 RWHP 1129 RWTQ
Posts: 5990 | From: Cameron Park, Ca | Registered: Sep 2001
| :
|
|
STREETFIGHTER50
unregistered
|
posted
What's the most mileage anyone's ever gone with any of the 347 set ups?
:
|
|
93PONY
Mr. Valve Events
Member # 60
|
posted
20+MPG on the highway.
Typical around town (nailing it) & to/from the track is around 10MPG on the wife's car.
--------------------
www.advancedenginedevelopment.com
SCT dealer
Dynotuning
(916)715-7569
Posts: 4265 | From: Fair Oaks, CA | Registered: Nov 2000
| :
|
|
Email this post to someone!
Printer friendly view of this Ford topic
