This is topic 1969 Cougar in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
So I bought a 69 Cougar today and I want to know what engine options I have that can drop directly in with no issues. I want to start looking for an 80s truck or something to do the swap. It came with a 351C
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
Why would you swap out a 351C for ANYTHING from the 80's? The 351C is the best small block (besides the Boss 302) Ford ever made.

[ 2014-08-22, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: wilit ]
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
anything done to the cleveland?
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
It doesn't run and I have the block in pieces along with a tranny that's been sitting for hella long. I'm on a budget to get it running and a donor seems like my best bet. If anyone wants to buy the block let me know
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
What's your budget and what's the situation with the tranny? Also, are you positive it's a Cleveland? The Cleveland wasn't offered in '69, only the Windsor.

Unless you're swapping in a complete running engine that you got for under $1000, I think you're going to spend a lot of time & money on the small stuff doing a swap. Most every small block from the 80's worth a shit (i.e. NOT from a truck) is going to have a rear sump pan. You'll need to swap that out. You'll need a pre-'86 timing cover. You'll need a pre-electronic distributor unless you want to convert it with an aftermarket distributor. If you pull a roller motor, you're going to need to make sure the distributor has a steel gear. You're going to need to completely swap out the exhaust system. Depending on what year motor you pull, you may need to work with the alternator to either work with the external voltage regulator or bypass it. That's assuming you got an engine complete with brackets. If your car has power steering, you need to either retrofit the original pump or have a custom pressure side hose made to adapt the mid-80's metric fitting to the SAE fitting on the PS control valve. You'll most likely need a carb manifold for that 80's engine. How is the existing carb? Good or needs to be rebuilt? You'll need new engine mounts. If you're swapping in a tranny too, you will probably need a different tranny mount and cross member (my guess is you have an FMX). You'll need a driveshaft probably too. Shifter linkage is different from an FMX to a C4 too.

See where I'm going with this? There's a lot of little shit that will nickle and dime you to death. It may be cheaper to rebuild the Cleveland and at the end of the day, you'll have a much better engine. The great thing about Clevelands is the heads are so awesome, you just need to have them refreshed. They will flow better than some aftermarket 302 heads.

[ 2014-08-23, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: wilit ]
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
The timing cover is a flat plate. The tranny sat outside for quite some time but had fresh fluid coming out when I tilted it. The guy I got it from told me the block is original to the car and it's a 351C. You are right the tranny is a FMX. If the block is a Cleveland can't I just throw in another SBF with a T-5? I was thinking I can custom make the clutch cable and cross member maybe. My budgets about 1500 to get it running or at least have the drive train in and ready to go. The carb I have is fucked and it's a 2bbl.

So right now I have the tranny, heads, block, rusty crank, driveshaft, intake manifold, exhaust manifold and valve covers. Carb needs a full rebuild too

[ 2014-08-23, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Wht86drop ]
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
My 70 was a 4v cleveland before it was a 351w they had swapped the full 351 from another mustang i believe they just had to re run the lines for PS and exhaust. the cheapest route would be AOD you Can reuse drive shaft and several other parts, t5 will require everything to be replaced or modified.

theres a member here that has a 69 cougar; i believe he had swapped over a 5.0&t5 and made it turbo. might want to contact him for some advise since hes done what you want to do

http://californiafords.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000380
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
If i use an AOD would I reuse the original driveshaft and yoke or the newer one? Also what kind of car would best work for the swap. Like a 85 and older auto mustang? Would I be able to use the shifter and linkage or how would that work
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
you can use the drive shaft you need a aod yoke; you can use any aod to my knowledge out of a fox you have to modify the shift linkage to use the stock shifter.

heres a link to sacramento mustangs aod conversion parts for aod:call and make sure they will fit on the cougar but i believe they are the same.

these parts you need besides the aod cant find the write-ups i found i on the swap but will look i plan on doing the same swap

http://store.sacramento-mustang.com/mustang-aod-automatic-conversion-parts-c356.aspx
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
Cool thanks I'll look into that. I just found an 89 vert with an AOD. Guy said he'll take 500 for it. So I should just expect to change the timing cover intake/carb and a one wire alternator? Oh and motor mounts?
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wht86drop:
Cool thanks I'll look into that. I just found an 89 vert with an AOD. Guy said he'll take 500 for it. So I should just expect to change the timing cover intake/carb and a one wire alternator? Oh and motor mounts?
Plus the oil pan and pickup tube (Fox is a rear sump, early Fords are front sumps), distributor, exhaust. Also, you didn't mention if you had power steering. You need to sort that out if you do. Just remembered, you might need to sort out the radiator/water pump. Early Fords were passenger side inlet/outlet. If you use the Fox pump, you need a staggered inlet/outlet on the radiator. That or you need to swap out the water pump for an early one. But if you do that, then you need to sort out the pullies. If you do an AOD swap, that's a lot easier as you'll just need the crossmember and yoke like 70stang351w mentioned. I've heard of guys reusing the stock shifter and linkage from a C4 on an AOD, but the shift pattern on the detents and indicator don't match up. You'd probably be best going with a B&M shifter.

Just FYI, if your Cougar did in fact come with a Cleveland, then you have a pretty rare car. I've heard stories of late production '69 Cougars and Mustangs getting Clevelands instead of Windsors.

[ 2014-08-23, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: wilit ]
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
I also heard that about the car. Supposedly they called it the 351 performance group package. I should just put the block back together but I don't have the money for a rebuild right now. I also wanted to assemble it myself so I can start getting into engine building. I don't think Ill need much. The cougar came with almost everything including the radiator. I guess I'll see when the donor is here. Any thoughts on converting to a fuel injection?

Sorry and yes it has power steering

[ 2014-08-23, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Wht86drop ]
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
69/70 should be pass/inlet driver/outlet on waterpump radiator radiator should be 24in i guessing you also had a/c, Wilit's right about the other engine stuff tho. still might be able to get it going for your price goal

[ 2014-08-24, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: 70stang351w ]
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
if your going AOD get that in first before longtubes it supposed to be wider than the fmx
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
So I found a 76 ranchero with a 351M. It already has a 4bbl carb and it's an auto. The shifter is on the column though. What issues should I be facing with this? Ill have the car or truck or whatever it is tomorrow morning. [patriot] [burnout]
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wht86drop:
So I found a 76 ranchero with a 351M. It already has a 4bbl carb and it's an auto. The shifter is on the column though. What issues should I be facing with this? Ill have the car or truck or whatever it is tomorrow morning. [patriot] [burnout]
The 351M is a 335 series engine like the Cleveland, but very different. First, it uses a big block bellhousing where the Cleveland uses a small block bellhousing. Second, every 351M was a low compression turd. Imagine how awesome a 150hp V8 that gets 10mpg will be. Third, it's a taller deck height than the 351C. It's a full inch taller (10.297") than the 351C (9.206"). That means some Cleveland parts will fit, but some will not. The 351M is actually physically larger than an FE motor, so squeezing it into the pre-'71 engine bay will be tough without notching or removing the shock towers.

Parts have finally been made to make the 351M/400 less of a turd, but they'll never be a good auto performance engine. They're better suited to trucks and Broncos since they have more engine bay space and those engines tend to make more torque than HP.

Honestly, if I couldn't get the Cleveland rebuilt and HAD to choose between the 351M and 5.0, I'd go with the 5.0.

[ 2014-08-25, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: wilit ]
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
If i were to find am auto foxbody, can I use the shifter and all the linkage and stuff. I do have an option for a fox so if it that'll be a better candidate I'll take that
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wht86drop:
If i were to find am auto foxbody, can I use the shifter and all the linkage and stuff. I do have an option for a fox so if it that'll be a better candidate I'll take that
been trying to research that my self should be able to every write up ive seen so far has reused the original shifter; shouldn't be to hard
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
Well today is here and I now have a 76 ranchero in my driveway lol picked it up for 700. Motor will be out by the end of today. It's got a 351M in it and a C6. It was the most cheapest option for me and I got new rims and tires with it so I feel like it was a pretty decent win. Motor mounts look the same and all I need now is a floor shifter, crossmember and exhaust. Any suggestions on a shifter or what would fit a C6
 
Posted by Duncan Motors (Member # 7045) on :
 
i have a 500 plus hp cleveland, and 1000 hp rated c6, motor needs to be assembled, 5000 takes it outta my life.
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
Just finished dropping the big block 351M in the car. DAMN ITS A TIGHT FIT! I had to chop the extra metal on the exhaust manifolds and chop a little peice of the threads that stick out on the manifold bolts. Only issue I might have is the gear box is like a 1/4 inch away from the exhaust. Im happy with the way it fit though because its super tight in there.
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
any pics yet?
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
I'll post pics in the general talk today after I finish making the crossmember fit from the ranchero. [patriot]
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
[patriot] How's the clearance on getting spark plugs in and out? I know getting to them on an FE is a pain in the ass.
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
It's actually not bad because the plugs face more upwards. Today was a challenge because of the motor mounts. I pulled it out like 10 times. I just drilled new holes about a half an inch higher on the bracket part and it worked perfect because the mounts sit on the car and the bolts are there to keep them in place if that makes sense.
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
Is the hood going to close once you get the carb and air cleaner on there?
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
It fits but the tip of the bolt that holds the air cleaner poked the hood because I slammed it shut like a dumbass. All good though because I'm going to cut a big hole for the XR7 hood scoop so it'll work out in the end

I can't post pics either. I guess my pics are too big

[ 2014-08-29, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Wht86drop ]
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
^^^^was going to say your going to have to get an eliminator hood to probably fit it
 
Posted by 70stang351w (Member # 9948) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 70stang351w:
^^^^was going to say your going to have to get an eliminator hood to probably fit it
mine does the same with my 351w in 70 when i added the different carb and airfilter
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
Yup I'm hoping to find one soon but for now I'll just cut the hole or ill throw the ugly little heart shaped cleaner on because I know that clears
 
Posted by wilit (Member # 3367) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wht86drop:

I can't post pics either. I guess my pics are too big
Create an account on imgur.com and post your stuff there. Easiest way to share pics on forums if you don't have your own webspace.
 
Posted by Wht86drop (Member # 12104) on :
 
Cool thanks wilit. Ive been trying to post pics for a few days already lol
 
Posted by SLOWBACK 67 (Member # 6348) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by wilit:
[patriot] How's the clearance on getting spark plugs in and out? I know getting to them on an FE is a pain in the ass.
They suck. My cousin use to own a 70 cougar with a 351c and the first time he changed the plugs it took him forever. With the right tools: swivels, extensions and a nice ratchet you can bang it out in under 30 mins. But the same job with a 351w can be done faster.
The 351c can make great power and the aftermarket has made parts more available for them in the past 15 years.

Oh and the motor Duncan has is no joke. [patriot]

[ 2014-08-31, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: SLOWBACK 67 ]
 




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