This is topic Trick Flow Twisted Wedge or Edelbrock Performer 1.90's? in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Hello all just wanted to get some opinions on which setup I should use.

I just picked up a 306. This was the one Lee had for sale awhile back. Roughly 30k miles on it. Cylinders have a lot of cross hatch left in them. Rotating assembly has been balanced. I plan on throwing all new gaskets on it and cleaning it up prior to install.

Now, here's my problem:

I have two sets of heads. One brand new set of Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 170cc O-Ringed Heads with Ford Racing 1.6 roller rockers, and one set of Edelbrock Performer 1.90" Heads with Omega 1.72 roller rockers that have ported bowls and are gasket matched to fel pro intake gaskets.

The engine setup is going to be supercharged 8psi full bolt ons and supporting mods in a 93 coupe. Holley Systemax intake, power pipe, shorty headers etc

The pistons are Speed Pro H273CP .030" Hyperutectic. The block has a Crane 2040 Compucam which from what I understand is the same as Ford Racing's E303 Cam

The Pro's For Edelbrock IMO:
-Take standard head gaskets(I already have a brand new set of head gaskets for these heads)
-Take Pedestal Mount Roller Rockers(install and torque down with little to no adjustment needed)
-Do not require hardened pushrods(since there is no pushrod guide plate) so I can re-use my current pushrods
-Ported/Polished bowls and gasket matched to fel pro intake gaskets
-1.72 Roller Rockers

The Con's For Edelbrock IMO:
-Less Power than TFS TW?
-1.90" Intake Valve
-Might have piston to valve clearance problem due to 1.72 ratio roller rocker arms with crane 2040 cam

The Pro's For Trick Flow IMO:
-More Power than the Edelbrocks?
-2.02" Intake Valve

The Con's For TFS TW IMO:
-Requires more expensive O-Ringed Head Gaskets(would have to buy)
-Stud Mount Rocker Arms require adjustment initially(I've never done this before)
-Must Buy & Use Hardened Pushrods
-Must buy/borrow pushrod measuring tool to determine pushrod length
-1.6 Roller Rockers
-Might have piston to valve clearance problems due to 2.02" intake valve

So, basically what it boils down to is do you guys think I should spend the extra money to get all of the stuff needed to run the trick flow heads? If the TFS TW would make more power, how much are we talking? 10whp? More?

I contacted the manufacturer and they say that these pistons should work fine with the trick flow heads. Lee also thinks they will be compatible, but recommends claying them to be sure.

If I do not use my TFS TW Heads I still plan on using them in the future, so they would not be going to waste. My original plan for the TFS Heads was to build a mild stroker like a 327cid with a boss block all forged, custom cam from hi tech motorsports etc

Thanks
Brandon
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
Id use the eddies.

With boost it will torch tho pistons at the drop of a hat so either head, dont matter.....might as well have a band aid headgasket pop and o ring ones are tougher than non.....so my vote is for the eddies.


Id sell the motor and use the funds to freshen up your existing forged piston shortblock. Arent you a wideband tuning guy if I remember right? One lean moment and by by ring lands. On those hypers.....the after market hypers, regardless of who makes them just arent as tough as the factory hypers.........

Dan
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:


If I do not use my TFS TW Heads I still plan on using them in the future, so they would not be going to waste. My original plan for the TFS Heads was to build a mild stroker like a 327cid with a boss block all forged, custom cam from hi tech motorsports etc

Thanks
Brandon
This sounds like a WAY better plan!!! Then you can make it an animal!!
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
Oh and your 273s are CP in the part number. WAY better piston than the old 273s which arent coated but they are much weaker around the wrist pin than the stock hypers for sure.

Also, the valve cuts are very deep in these pistons so tho I would ALWAYS check PTV clearance, I doubt you will have ANY issues. If I remember right I had like .180 clearance on the intake side with a GT40 P head!!!
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.

Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.

Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.

Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.

Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
I think if your current shortblock is in good shape then you are wasting your dollars, until your beast motor gets built......but its your money and my opinion and we all know those are like assholes.....
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.

Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.

Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
I think if your current shortblock is in good shape then you are wasting your dollars, until your beast motor gets built......but its your money and my opinion and we all know those are like assholes.....
I picked up this 306 shortblock for about what I could rebuild my current shortblock shortblock for. So I figured it would be a good way to go. Plus it's balanced, so actually less than I could have rebuilt and balanced my current shortblock for. I just figured it should be able to last until I get my other setup done. A year of less hopefully. I'm just tired of seeing my Mustang sit in the garage.
 
Posted by racsirx (Member # 1710) on :
 
I want to state that I didn't sell him the motor, I sold it to someone else, who sold it to him, I wont use those pistons with boost.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
Well I'm running 42lb injectors with sn95 rails and a walbro 255lph in tank pump, so going lean shouldn't be a problem with this setup. I also have a brand new pro products fuel rail setup I could use.

Are you saying you don't think this block would even be worth putting in my car until I finish up my other one? It will see some hard use, but I don't beat on my cars like a lot of guys do. No burnouts other than the track, no donuts, only hit the track a couple times per year.

Yes I am a wideband tuner which I still need to get for my Mustang. I use an innovate lc1 on my srt and love it.
I think if your current shortblock is in good shape then you are wasting your dollars, until your beast motor gets built......but its your money and my opinion and we all know those are like assholes.....
I picked up this 306 shortblock for about what I could rebuild my current shortblock shortblock for. So I figured it would be a good way to go. Plus it's balanced, so actually less than I could have rebuilt and balanced my current shortblock for. I just figured it should be able to last until I get my other setup done. A year of less hopefully. I'm just tired of seeing my Mustang sit in the garage.
It should last.

HO motors are balanced within 3-4 grams from the factory.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by racsirx:
I want to state that I didn't sell him the motor, I sold it to someone else, who sold it to him, I wont use those pistons with boost.
It was a good deal either way. I remember the motor.

Dan
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by racsirx:
I want to state that I didn't sell him the motor, I sold it to someone else, who sold it to him, I wont use those pistons with boost.
This is correct. I bought this from the person who bought it from Lee.
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
I was checking the federal mogul sight and they state these pistons are able to bebe used in moderate supercharging applications. Why would they make such a bolt statement if their pistons wouldnt hold up to boost?
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
I was checking the federal mogul sight and they state these pistons are able to bebe used in moderate supercharging applications. Why would they make such a bolt statement if their pistons wouldnt hold up to boost?
Because its a conspiracy, we are all trying to get over on you and get your awesome shortblock from you!! LMFAO

Im totally kidding.

Manufacturers make TONS of bullshit claims you know?

I mean why does KN say its filter will make 30 more horsepower on my turbo diesel when that is complete bullshit?

LOL

If you get technical, which I notice you always do in your posts and that is GREAT. You always question things, have doubts, try stuff your own and make your own decisions. That is GREAT!....I digress,,,,,if you get into it hyper pistons are actually rated at a TOTAL HP rating from what I read and understand.

That said, if you have a motor making (theoretical numbers only) 600hp on motor with these pistons rated at say 600hp..and you add boost or some other power adder.....well you get the idea.

The low end scat rotators are rated to 550hp yet hold up to 1,000hp all the time.....

The dss main girdle motors STILL come apart...

Well.....you get my drift.

All in all I guess it is a mute point because the block will go boom right around the same time those pistons will??????


Dan
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
I agree that manufacturers want to sell theur product, so they may exaggerate a bit on some points for sure.

I would guess this motor would likely make around or a little over400 hp at the crank, so I don't know what the weak spot would be. The block, or pistons.

I do know that my SRT has eutectic pistons which are considered the weak point of our motors. I know quite a few people with zeroproblems with the pistons including those with 450whp+, but then again they could have designed a specific piston for our motors.

I'm tempted to try it out, but I'd rather not mess up my heads if a piston fails.

Both of you guys have a lot of real world experience with motors, so I'm not doubting your opinions at all.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FivePTSlow:
I agree that manufacturers want to sell theur product, so they may exaggerate a bit on some points for sure.

I would guess this motor would likely make around or a little over400 hp at the crank, so I don't know what the weak spot would be. The block, or pistons.

I do know that my SRT has eutectic pistons which are considered the weak point of our motors. I know quite a few people with zeroproblems with the pistons including those with 450whp+, but then again they could have designed a specific piston for our motors.

I'm tempted to try it out, but I'd rather not mess up my heads if a piston fails.

Both of you guys have a lot of real world experience with motors, so I'm not doubting your opinions at all.
Ur SRT has a hyper piston made by a piston manufacturer for use in an OEM application. Way different than any off the shelf hyper piston.

I never said dont run it, just like to see you happy with your race blocked stroker motor!!!
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Usually it's the opposite where the aftermarket is stronger than oem, or af least as good. Why do you think this isnt the case with eutectics?

Stroker motor is all in due time. I just gotta finish paying off my credit card then I can build it, but I dont want to have my mustang just collecting dust for all that time
 
Posted by Camara90 (Member # 134) on :
 
Run the trick flows, mill them down add some compression, Sell the blower to help fund a custom cam and any good N/A bolt on's. Enjoy the 306 with hypers, and make some nice power!! I have thought about building a sick ass N/A small block lately. Nothing like the sound of a N/A small block over 7k rpms!!!
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
I like boost way too much to go n/a now. Especially since I already have the blower. I know I'd be disappointed at the track too.
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
Today I called Federal Mogul to ask them their opinion on these specific pistons under boost. The tech guy I talked to said that 8psi with these pistons is a dangerous game and really pushing the limits of the pistons. He said if I had a very good/safe tune they would probably be ok, but he recommends against using these particular pistons under that much boost since any detonation at all at 8psi would likely grenade the pistons.
 
Posted by 91blackonblack (Member # 11591) on :
 
Bro listen to turbo bro he knows what he is talking about.im not bashing you but u sound like the type im reading that ask's info an an everybody tells u to not do something an you do it anyways.i had hyper pistons an got the same advise frm a guy that knows his shit.an he said those damn things will melt the fuck down.now like i said im not bashing you bit get rid of the pistons or dont run boost at all an keep them.it wont work.dont do something twice.listen to what turbo is saying he knows all these setups.good luck with the build overall.quandoe
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 91blackonblack:
Bro listen to turbo bro he knows what he is talking about.im not bashing you but u sound like the type im reading that ask's info an an everybody tells u to not do something an you do it anyways.i had hyper pistons an got the same advise frm a guy that knows his shit.an he said those damn things will melt the fuck down.now like i said im not bashing you bit get rid of the pistons or dont run boost at all an keep them.it wont work.dont do something twice.listen to what turbo is saying he knows all these setups.good luck with the build overall.quandoe
As stated above, I never doubt Dan, or Lee's opinions. They have built a lot more motors than me, and I worked at a Mustang Shop for two years, so that's saying a lot. I am not the type of person to just get one or two opinions and make a decision based upon those couple of opinions without solid facts behind them. Eutectic pistons have a bad wrap for many reasons, but personally I don't know of one person that has had a eutectic fail on them.

I might have tried the build if I had a wideband and a tweecer or megasquirt to do a full and very detailed tune, but I don't, and don't want to spend the money on that stuff at the moment, so I am going to follow Dan, Lee, and the manufacturers advice and not run boost on these pistons. Just have to decide if I want to do an n/a build, or just sell the shortblock. The shortblock is still a nice setup, so it will do someone good for sure.
 
Posted by nitrous_bob (Member # 77) on :
 
ive been spraying for 10 years on hyper pistons....im just saying

but id do the eddies...already ported do it

why do you think you'll kiss a valve with 1.90 but the 2.02 are safer ? did i miss something ?
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
My edelbrocks use pedestal rockers and I have 1.72 ratio
My trick flows use stud mount and I have 1.6 rockers for those. Plus the trick flows have a different angle, so I'm equally worried about ptv with either head.

Would you run my setup untuned with only the factory computer doing the decision making? I have a pmas 95mm maf calibrated for 42lb injectors pmass also asked all of the details of my setup for the meter, so i dont know if that helps or not.
 
Posted by 91blackonblack (Member # 11591) on :
 
Well i would jus toss the pistions or sale them an get some nice rods an pistons if you do keep the block.weigh the piston if u can have it pull apart an weigh the rod then math it up an get the exact pistion an rod that weigh the same since the motor was balanced.my 02
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 91blackonblack:
Well i would jus toss the pistions or sale them an get some nice rods an pistons if you do keep the block.weigh the piston if u can have it pull apart an weigh the rod then math it up an get the exact pistion an rod that weigh the same since the motor was balanced.my 02
If I were going to do that I might as well just use the block that's already in the car and rebuild it. If I wanted to just swap pistons for forged pistons then that's around $500, plus having it re-balanced, and installed. Might as well just sell this short block and start from scratch.

The reason I don't want to start from scratch is because I'm going to build a stroker motor in the future anyway, so no sense in building two new motors. This block seemed like a good deal, but is obviously turning out not to be.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by nitrous_bob:
ive been spraying for 10 years on hyper pistons....im just saying

but id do the eddies...already ported do it

why do you think you'll kiss a valve with 1.90 but the 2.02 are safer ? did i miss something ?
I sprayed the shit out of factory hypers until I sold the car. Never went lean tho.
 
Posted by 91blackonblack (Member # 11591) on :
 
Well do this then.build that block dont run the charger on it.jus make it a dependable motor.like driving to reno without worring about anything.then build your stroker motor with a kit that u can run that charger, an do all that on ur stroker motor.how that sounds?
 
Posted by FivePTSlow (Member # 7682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 91blackonblack:
Well do this then.build that block dont run the charger on it.jus make it a dependable motor.like driving to reno without worring about anything.then build your stroker motor with a kit that u can run that charger, an do all that on ur stroker motor.how that sounds?
I was talking to my brother earlier and he could use this block since he wants an n/a build, so I will most likely just sell it to him and continue my quest for a good short block to use for my setup, or maybe just pull the block out of my car and rebuild it since it worked great up until losing compression.
 




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