This is topic KOER Codes 21, 42, 41, 91 in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
So I bought a code scanner last night and ran a diagnostic with the car off and then with it on.

Off I got a code about a sending signal for the fuel pump which I have read that can be a phantom code. But...

with the car running I got the following codes, in this order 21, 42, 91, 41.

The book says 21 is a cooling issue, which could be because I didnt warm it up enough. The next codes 42, 91, 41 are all related to the HEGO or H02S. One of the codes says too lean and the next says too rich.

Any experience with this?
 
Posted by vpr_klr (Member # 3353) on :
 
all stock 5.0?

miles?
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
sorry...not stock

gt40 iron heads
gt40 intake
e cam
24lb injectors
70mm tb
maf 24lb sampling tube

no adjustable fuel regulator yet, waiting on money to buy a kit

car is not idling well, goes up and down when cold. once warmed it will idle low and rough, and has stalled before
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
So I bought a code scanner last night and ran a diagnostic with the car off and then with it on.

Off I got a code about a sending signal for the fuel pump which I have read that can be a phantom code. But...

with the car running I got the following codes, in this order 21, 42, 91, 41.

The book says 21 is a cooling issue, which could be because I didnt warm it up enough. The next codes 42, 91, 41 are all related to the HEGO or H02S. One of the codes says too lean and the next says too rich.

Any experience with this?
21 Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor out of range

41 (R) System lean
(M) System was lean for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching)

42 (R) System rich
(M) System was rich for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching)

91 (R, M) System running lean
Transmission SS 1 circuit/solenoid problem

Code 21 sounds like a bad ECT sensor. The other codes could be bad O2 sensors.
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
sorry...not stock

gt40 iron heads
gt40 intake
e cam
24lb injectors
70mm tb
maf 24lb sampling tube

no adjustable fuel regulator yet, waiting on money to buy a kit

car is not idling well, goes up and down when cold. once warmed it will idle low and rough, and has stalled before
Once you get your codes sorted out I would install a AJFPR, a fuel pressure gauge, and dial in the fuel pressure. Also, check for vaccum leaks and check the idle itself.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
thanks, when you mention vacuum leak, I hear air but I cannot seem to find anything leaking. It sounds like its coming from the intake, not sure about upper or lower. Maybe a gasket?

Could a vacuum leak cause this much of a headache?
 
Posted by SmokinLX (Member # 1684) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
thanks, when you mention vacuum leak, I hear air but I cannot seem to find anything leaking. It sounds like its coming from the intake, not sure about upper or lower. Maybe a gasket?

Could a vacuum leak cause this much of a headache?
Get a can of carb cleaner or starting fluid and spray around the intake and vaccum lines till You find the leak and repair it [patriot] .
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
okay, so I took off the upper intake and I found a hose off of the underside of the intake that was not hooked up. When I run the car and cover it, the idle seems to even out a little. After feeling around to where it might go I noticed there was no pcv valve where it was suppsoed to be.

Looking at this pic: http://images.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/138_0308_15z+ford_mustang+pcv_valve.jpg

It shows a rubber grommet and then you put the pcv valve inside. Any ideas?
 
Posted by Stan G (Member # 6226) on :
 
Good job, you found a major air leak.

Go pick up the grommet and pcv valve ( there should be a screen in there as well ).

Hook it back up to the intake and see if it runs right now.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Fixed that today and the car seems to be running a little bit better... I guess. Now I have a major surge in the idle. To the point it will stall after a bit. I ran another test and Code 18 came up. Says something about the SPOUT connector, but I see the gray connector in there already.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Scratch that, reseated the SPOUT connector and that code went away. Car seems to be running better, not rich now.

The idle surge is terrible though. When I am cruising and I push the clutch in, the car will stall at times while I am slowing down.
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
Did you or someone else convert this car to a stick/manual from an auto?
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Yes, this car was a automatic, it was done by the original owner. Before I bought it though
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Still getting code 18 and I checked computer model and its an A9P model.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
anyone familiar?
 
Posted by Jdub07 (Member # 2728) on :
 
Sometimes after fixing such an air leak and so many codes you need to drive the car for a little bit and run it through its cycles,...idle, cruising, wide open throttle....so that the computer than make the right adjustments to the changes you just made. When I installed my cobra upper and lower I had an air leak from the same area and the car was acting the same as yours. Buddy of mine said to do the above and before 50 miles car was perfect. Just a thought. [patriot]
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
okay wil continue to drive it around. hard with the damn stalling at times ha
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
Have you cleared the codes you origional saw? They may still be stored in memory.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
I dont see the codes in the memory of the scanner and I unhooked the battery for a bit and ran the test again, and pulled the 18 still.

The stalling and major surging is still there, it will stall if I dont give it gas
 
Posted by venomous99 (Member # 1917) on :
 
18(CM) SPOUT circuit open or spark angle word failure.
18(KOER) IDM circuit failure or SPOUT circuit grounded.

is your spout connected to the distributor?
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
.

The idle surge is terrible though. When I am cruising and I push the clutch in, the car will stall at times while I am slowing down.
Once you clear up your spout codes have a look at the reference in this link and watch the video if you are still a non believer.

http://www.californiafords.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=017339
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by turbo50:
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
.

The idle surge is terrible though. When I am cruising and I push the clutch in, the car will stall at times while I am slowing down.
Once you clear up your spout codes have a look at the reference in this link and watch the video if you are still a non believer.

http://www.californiafords.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=017339
Oh yeah, I remember reading about this too. You should check it out [patriot]
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
is that car a manual converted to a automatic? I have an auto converted to a stick (tremec 3550)
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
yeah the connector for the spout is connected, is there a chance that its a faulty spout connector? is there a way I could test (i guess i could buy another one).
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
is that car a manual converted to a automatic? I have an auto converted to a stick (tremec 3550)
It is an auto, converted to a stick....like you have.....
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
odd i dont get code 67 but the rolling idle happens.

for the spout connector, could I do the same thing but using a paperclip to connect the two tabs to make sure the connect that I have isnt the problem?
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
odd i dont get code 67 but the rolling idle happens.

for the spout connector, could I do the same thing but using a paperclip to connect the two tabs to make sure the connect that I have isnt the problem?
No. I think that the PIP has a resistance value.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
okay, I will probably have to take it somewhere and have it looked at, my expertise is about an an end. I will get a multi-meter and test the TPS as some others suggested
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
No, tackle it yourself.

Look into this

http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=85


Then look around this whole site and familiarize yourself with your beast!

http://www.fordfuelinjection.com
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
Another reason I asked about your "5 speed swap"

Deceleration
The vehicle is moving and you lift your foot off the accelerator. EEC sense’s the TPS go to closed and VSS signal slow. This presents a few problems that are easily overcome. First we have to prevent stalling; this is why the IAB has been open, just in case the throttle snaps shut. After throttle closure the Throttle Air Bypass closes slowly closes. Then it controls idle as we reach a stop and move back into warm idle strategy. We are always thinking of emissions and burning fuel as we decelerate is a big waste. EEC turns the injectors completely off when RPM is over 1500 and the engine is over 140°F. Injectors begin operating under 1500RPM or if you hit the skinny pedal. If you don’t run a VSS you can run the risk of stalling when slowing down from over 1500RPM. EGR is turned off but the canister purge is opened to burn off fuel vapors from the gas tank. Timing can be advanced for two reasons; first with low airflow signals there is little chance of detonation. Secondly, advanced timing helps push back on the pistons, this helps create that engine brake effect.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Okay thanks for the info! I am going to get a multi-meter so that I can start learning this stuff!
 
Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
Okay thanks for the info! I am going to get a multi-meter so that I can start learning this stuff!
That is the spirit!!
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Okay, replaced all the PCV stuff, reset base idle, set TPS at .98 and still got a surging idle. Now I read that you can test the IAC by running the car and if you unplug it, the car should stall. When I do the car keeps running, doesnt really change, but the idle lowers a little bit.

I have noticed the car runs fine when I first start it up cold for a few minutes, then it starts to slow surge then into full blown surge and stall. I start the car up again, then after a minute or two it gets back into that pattern again.

I also ran a cylinder balance test 3 times. The test were as follows:

#1: codes 80 60 40
#2: codes 80 70 60
#3: codes 60

Any feedback?? I was thinking about completely replacing the IAC. I cleaned it all out but that didnt seem to do anything.
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
Okay, replaced all the PCV stuff, reset base idle, set TPS at .98 and still got a surging idle. Now I read that you can test the IAC by running the car and if you unplug it, the car should stall. When I do the car keeps running, doesnt really change, but the idle lowers a little bit.

I have noticed the car runs fine when I first start it up cold for a few minutes, then it starts to slow surge then into full blown surge and stall. I start the car up again, then after a minute or two it gets back into that pattern again.

I also ran a cylinder balance test 3 times. The test were as follows:

#1: codes 80 60 40
#2: codes 80 70 60
#3: codes 60

Any feedback?? I was thinking about completely replacing the IAC. I cleaned it all out but that didnt seem to do anything.
I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a vacuum leak. I read the 1st part of your thread that stated you had fixed your PCV leak. However, I would check again for other leaks.
 
Posted by blkfoxbody89 (Member # 8361) on :
 
My 89' surges and drops until it dies when my pcv valve is stuck or my vaccume line to it has a leak.

I'm actually having that surging idle problem as we speak, the seal where it plugs into the grommet is leaky.
 
Posted by blkfoxbody89 (Member # 8361) on :
 
also try and turn up you idle screw a little and see what that does.
 
Posted by BCINGUU (Member # 2397) on :
 
Or, turn down the idle screw. If the car continues to run after you disconnect the IAC, it may be getting too much air.

Actually, it's a real good idea to leave your idle screw alone, at the factory setting. If it has been adjusted before, it can be hard to get it back to the correct setting.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Latest update:

I have replaced the IAC, reset the base idle, reseated the Distributor (to make sure it wasnt off) reset timing to 10 degrees, reset TPS to .997 and cleared codes. I am no longer getting any codes, however the car it still surging.

The car starts up great and runs great for a minute or two while its warming then it starts surging. Eventually it will stall. When I restart it will again run for a minute or so (or sometimes until I rev it up) and then will start surging again.

When driving around it will still stall out when I push the clutch in. However when I am at a stop and push the clutch in it doesnt stall, just when I am driving around and decide to come to a stop. This VSS sensor thing... could that cause the stalling? I noticed an odd thing, I can start the car without pushing in the clutch, isnt that odd?
 
Posted by gtowned (Member # 8156) on :
 
unplug your vss.if no change then get a new one.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Hmm okay, will test that. But now the dumb question, where is this thing located at?

I have never checked it, it was just based on what I read from other people.
 
Posted by gtowned (Member # 8156) on :
 
back of the tranny
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Okay, kool. I have a Tremec, but it was a manual conversion before I got the car. Hopefully there is still a spot for the sensor.
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 


[ June 27, 2008, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: mastercudaz ]
 
Posted by mastercudaz (Member # 7486) on :
 
Okay is there anyone who can explain why turning my MAF would stop the surging and stalling?
 
Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mastercudaz:
Okay is there anyone who can explain why turning my MAF would stop the surging and stalling?
yes, depending on the type of maf the orientation of the vane that reads the air flow is important (fuck if I know why).

Bottom line is.. turn it til it runs better and then leave it there [Smile]
 




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