quote:

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Originally posted by JohnB:
Carrier bearing(s) are not shimmed correctly. No pinion should EVER need to be machined, so that's another problem.

Your gears will be junk very shortly as well...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yaterstang:
Isnt JohnB the best place to get gears done anyways?

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Best, naw But yes he does great work.
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
I really appriciate that Matt is standing by his work, I trust that he did a good job, I just want to figure out what I can do to quite down the gears while turning. I replaced both wheel bearings today, no luck, still the same, so I am going to let Matt take a look at it as soon as he can.

I originally called Matt to find out what i could do regaring the gears. I thought about calling the manufaturer. I paid top dollar to get the frpp gears because I wanted quiet gears, then to find out they are motive gears? Whats up with that? I could have got those for $100 less on ebay.

Anyhow, I trust that Matt will figure it all out. I didnt start this thread to make it look like he didnt do a good job, just to get some ideas about where to go from here.

Thanks to Haulinass Motorsports helping me out.
 

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Posted by JohnB (Member # 969) on :
 
Haulin'/Matt will take care of you.

And yes, I'm the best. j/k
 

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Posted by hidnn.o.s. (Member # 1219) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnB:
j/k

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No you're not
 

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Posted by badazlx (Member # 4899) on :
 
so whats the verdict? what was wrong?

[ February 20, 2008, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: badazlx ]
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
Took it into Matt yesterday, he's on the job. Took him for a drive so he could hear it. He thinks it may not be related to the gears at all, so he is going to try and figure it out.

I am hoping it is not a problem with the new differential or something like that. It is harder to figure out because i changed so many parts at once I guess. Anyhow, Matt is going to let me know what he finds out some time today hopefully, I will update you all.

Steve
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
Well, Matt took it all apart and replaced an additional bearing, took away some of the noise. I have been driving it around for a couple days and it is STILL making that groaning sound when I turn right, but not quite as bad.

That being said, i am confident Matt at Haulin Ass Motorsports did everything humanly possible, and at this point it must have something to do with the parts, Either the diff, the gears, or increased road noise from the control arms. Overall I am bummed that it is so noisy, but happy with the performance, and more than satisfied with Matt's customer service.

Next step, call the place where I got the gears and ask them why I paid $80 more for a gear made by motive.
 

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Posted by asskickn88 (Member # 4957) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by HaulinAss Motorsports:
I WILL figure out the problem!


ANY and ALL work that I do is 100% Guaranteed for Lifetime of the vehicle!

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Posted by Ken Collins (Member # 8236) on :
 
If it's making noise in a turn, you have a problem with the traction-lok clutch pack. Their too tight or not enough friction modifer. More noise in a turn is not a ring and pinion or axle bearing concern because these things are turning all the time, not just making a turn. As someone else said, no machining needs to be done on a pinion and if this happened, the gear is a throwaway. Another thing you might check, is it possible there's a tire/wheel rubbing an inner fender or quad shock in a turn? When it comes to car problems, pretty much anything is possible....Ken.
 

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Posted by turbo50 (Member # 6700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken Collins:
If it's making noise in a turn, you have a problem with the traction-lok clutch pack. Their too tight or not enough friction modifer. More noise in a turn is not a ring and pinion or axle bearing concern because these things are turning all the time, not just making a turn. As someone else said, no machining needs to be done on a pinion and if this happened, the gear is a throwaway. Another thing you might check, is it possible there's a tire/wheel rubbing an inner fender or quad shock in a turn? When it comes to car problems, pretty much anything is possible....Ken.

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Ken, don't know how you found your way over here, but I have several of your CDs and I must say that they are top notch!!!

Thanks!
 

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Posted by jmcclesk (Member # 1355) on :
 

 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken Collins:
If it's making noise in a turn, you have a problem with the traction-lok clutch pack. Their too tight or not enough friction modifer. More noise in a turn is not a ring and pinion or axle bearing concern because these things are turning all the time, not just making a turn. As someone else said, no machining needs to be done on a pinion and if this happened, the gear is a throwaway. Another thing you might check, is it possible there's a tire/wheel rubbing an inner fender or quad shock in a turn? When it comes to car problems, pretty much anything is possible....Ken.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 90lxfoxbody:
I build alot of rear ends for guys,and i will say if it only makes noise when turning its in the carrier or a axle bearing.Also a rear end shouldnt make any noise when setup right.SHouldnt whine or growl or grind period.

Bottom line is they should fix it,now if they were used gears that u supplied,well then your on your own on that.But if its all new parts it shouldnt be a problem for them to do it right.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 90lxfoxbody:
MAtt i didnt even read the whole post,i didnt know you did the instal,nor was i trying to bust your chops.I dont think i was mis leading in anyway on my post or did it make you look bad in anyway.But if its a turn only issue it has to be either in suspension i.e something rubbing ect ect or something in the carrier or axle bearing on the right side.You said customer supplied all parts,but customer stated noise wasnt there before.Welll if its a new carrier and the noise came witht he carrier/axle bearing that leads me to believe its in one of those 2 components.The ring and pinion dont care if the car is going straight or turning,as it would make noise either way if setup wrong.You have stated that the noise is only while turning so that throws out the ring and pinion and your workmanship.So in my opionin its in the carrier or axle/axle bearing hub assembly on the right side.MAybe a bad spider in the carrier who knows,but the work you did is right as the ring and pinion or quiet.

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Nate no offense taken at all!
 

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Posted by 5.0XR4 (Member # 8229) on :
 
Wait a sec. Now that I reread the thread, you said you replaced "everything else back there..." Did that include new axle shafts? If not, then I'd look there.

That right axle shaft goes through unbelievable loads and reversals, AND, its adapted to the stresses specific to the original components. It may have had problems which were disguised, or worked OK as all the original components wore in together.

If its the same old shaft, it may look good, but its had thousands of miles of fatiguing in specific cycling and load directions. With all new components throughout, what you've done is improve the translation of loads through that shaft, and magnified the shaft's fatigued weaknesses.

So, what you'd get is much more warpage and deflection under "normal" loads, than what the old components would have induced. And you'd never see it, because you can't look inside the axle tube while its operating.

All those new bearings could be working great in a straight line, but the additional torques in a turn and the deflection of the weak axle would magnify deflections either at the diff, or at the hub.

This deflection would cause the grinding noises. Even new bearings would make noise if there's too much deflection in the shaft resulting in the shaft passing through the hub under loads at an eccentric or skewed angle.

Or, if the new bearings are good enough to tolerate some angle, then the deflection could be effecting alignment outside of the end-bearing. In other words, you'd have misalignment of components, like the hub skewing off enough to make the rotor interfere with the caliper, (or misalignment of hub w/ drum backing plate).

This is the kind of stuff you'd never pick up on a tear down, unless you were specifically looking for signs of wear in those components because you suspected axle deflection. For example, you'd have had to cleaned out and disassembled the "new" bearings which were replaced, to ID new wear. It might not even look like much because of the low mileage, but you could find proof of the axle deflection if you suspected it.

But, if you did replace the axle shafts... then never mind.
 

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Posted by 5.0XR4 (Member # 8229) on :
 
One other point... when you had everything out, did you check the axle tubes for true?

I'm guessing you've banged on your car a little, and you want more, so that's why you went to the 4.10's? Or, maybe the previous owner did. Or, maybe you curbed it once or twice? Doesn't take much at all to bend the tubes, believe it or not.

In the old days for road racing, we used to heat and bend the axle at the diff to get a little negative camber. But, it was really tricky, because if you weren't perfect, you could introduce a bend in the tube. Or, if you weren't perfect side to side, you'd have a car which handled distinctly differently left to right.

No, it wasn't cheating... wasn't in the rule book either, but it worked.

If you got it wrong, or bent the tube(s) you'd hear it. And, you'd go through bearings pretty quick. Misalignment of the axle shaft because the centerlines of the inner and outer bearings produces a ton of heat and noise.
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
I did not replace the axle tubes. I did not even think of that, thanks. I think I will look around and see if i can find a low cost tube somewhere. If I would have known i was going to end up replacing all that I should have done 31 splines at the same time. Oh well, live and learn i guess.

If it is making noise when turning RIGHT only, which axle do I replace to diagnose if thats the issue.

What is more likely, axle tubes, or some problem with the diff (spider gears, clutches, bearings)?

Thanks, Steve
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
So just to make it clear for me, when looking for issues outside of the rear end, things like brakes/cables, shocks, etc, I should be looking for issues on the LEFT side right? if it makes noise on RIGHT turns?

Also, all suspension is new, besides the quad shock. I just installed a bullit suspension kit before Matt got it. I did not torque the shocks in the rear, just German torqued them. Could that be an issue, would torque on the new control arms be of significance? Any more ideas geratly appriciated.

Steve
 

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Posted by 5.0XR4 (Member # 8229) on :
 
I think that after all the work Matt has done, you've probably got all the actual diff stuff working perfect. But, sometimes, you can get that noise from bad, or misaligned LS plates (traction loc), and its difficult to prove it.

I'd check the shafts first. As I wrote, the right side just takes a brutal beating under normal conditions, because if its location to the crown and pinion. Odds are much higher that there's a problem on that side.

But, if you're gonna replace it because there might be a fatigue issue, you might as well do both sides. If you've got two potential weak links left, then fix them both.

I'd still check the tubes. Would have been a lot easier, and lighter to drop it when everything was disassembled. Not much you can do now, but you could use a square and a lazer pen to check to see if the bearing mounting surfaces are even with each other.

In other words, try to sqaure up to the end of the tube, put the lazer at a right angle to the tube, and to the square, then line it up with the outer bearing boss. It should be exactly the same to the inner boss. Then, try lining the pen up along the outside of the tube. That's more difficult because the hub/bearing flange gets in the way, but you should be able to spot a bend in the tube by having the lazer beam as a reference.

Whatever you do, just remember you're only approximating it. If you suspect a problem, you need a good machinists with the right tools to check and fix the problem. Or, just start over with a bare axle that you KNOW is true. It sucks, but...

Still, its an easier option to first try a lazer pen with the axle still on the vehicle.
 

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Posted by 5.0XR4 (Member # 8229) on :
 
TORQUE TO SPECS!!! Especially with suspension components, or you're inviting bind.

As far as checking the left side, consider both sides to be the potential problem. If the left side is weak anywhere, its causing the right side to compensate in ways it wasn't designed for.

I suspect your problem is on the right side with the shaft, but if you want a perfectly running car, that means everything has to be perfect. Its worth it to be totally thorough, right and left, and you'll eliminate a lot of worries later about something coming lose, or problems developing which could have just used a little more patience at the outset.

I think of it like independant suspension, no matter what. 2 sides, both of which are essential. Its like trying to figure out where a steering pull is actually coming from. Tire on that side, that side aligned improperly, or the side opposite the pull? Or, it could be the rear. Or maybe a bent suspension component, or a worn rear shackle, etc., etc., etc. There's always more than one possible cause, so you need to always think in terms of checking EVERY possible cause.

[ February 24, 2008, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: 5.0XR4 ]
 

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Posted by JohnB (Member # 969) on :
 
Take a good look at the calipers and ensure the pins are still floating freely. I had this EXACT issue not too long ago on my Cobra. Also, how was the cross-pin for the carrier? In good shape?

FYI, you cannot just "change" a axle tube. This would involve a TON of work.
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
Yeah, sorry, I meant change the axles, not the tubes. I will look at the caliper, and the carier shaft (i am assuming that is the one that goes through the middle of the diff? That was new. If it something else, im not sure.
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
one more note, the noise is definately rotational, as in it changes speed and sound as the drivetrain is turning faster or slower. That is what gives me the idea it must be a moving part. How would I diagnose if it is in the clutch pack.

And would it hurt to add another bottle of friction modifier?

Also, the clutch packs were not soaked, as far as I could see, before they were installed by ford racing. Is that an issue?

Just looking for more ideas, dont want to keep going in and out of the rear diff. That stuff stinks.
 

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Posted by Ken Collins (Member # 8236) on :
 
Adding a bottle of modifier won't hurt anything and might help.
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
try the GM modifier it seemd to work the best I can't belive I wrote that lol. You would think the clutch packs would make noise turning left also.
 

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Posted by sn4bwc (Member # 8035) on :
 
Thought I would revive this dead topic with an update.

Well about 500 miles on the gears now, STILL making anoying groan only when turning right. I have changed the fluids again, and added more friction modifier. But I am thinking it may be a bad trac-loc I got. It was new Ford Racing, but it came from ebay, you know how that goes. Axles looked good. Tubes looked good. Im at a loss, everything else is new.

There was a slight amount of play in the Trac-Lok posi/carrier housing side to side, very slight, but is that normal?

I assume also that if it were the clutch packs it would make noise both ways, correct me if im wrong. Maybe I just need to forget about it, but it is just so anoying.

Thanks,

Steve
 

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Posted by 1fast281 (Member # 4670) on :
 
Rebuild the trac-loc with carbon fiber clutches (same as 03/04 Cobra), you can get the kit from Summit Racing for just over 100 bucks. The regular rebuild kit cost around 60 and has the same internals as your new trac-loc came with. BTW, Motive does make the gears for Ford Racing now and they are good quality.
 

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