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Posted by 95331StrimVert (Member # 6250) on :
 
Thoughts,
Stangers, I’m getting a new Dart based 347 internal balanced short-block for my sn95 S-Trim vert. The 4 bolt block will have a forged Eagle internally balanced crank, H-beam rods, JE dished pitons, and E-cam. I have negotiated a price for the build.

93Pony gave me some real good pointers for this build. I would like to go with a better (smog-able???) bump-stick, and I will stick with the Vortech S-trim, 77mm Pro-Flow, 36lb, and SVO intake. Because, at this time I will taped out of cash and note able to replace the Autologic chip and get a retune. By the way, the tune that Byron did a few years ago before I bought the car was top notch:-) Very street-able and smog-able. Any last minute thoughts on the new build before I lay out the long green?
 

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Posted by SmokinLX (Member # 1684) on :
 
Injector's look a little small? What pulley combo are You running on the Vortech? Not trying to sound harsh but why the E cam on a 347? That E cam will be holding You back, so I would try to change it while the engine is out of the car! Should'nt take Ya too lomg to save up 2-300 buck's. I just got rid of the E cam in My old engine and it was way too small on 308.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
XE274HR, retarded 4 degrees.
 

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Posted by 95331StrimVert (Member # 6250) on :
 
It has been argued that the 36s are small. But if the rails and connectors are drilled out and the pressure bumped up just a little bit I should be ok there. That’s what I’ve been told. I’m Not an expert here…

The pulley is a 3.3 I think. And it was running 9lbs of boost on the 331.
The deal with the cam is that I that I didn’t want to re-tune the auto logic chip. I heard that it’s hard to get an Auto-logic tuner around the Bay Area these days. Wouldn’t I need to re-tune if the cam is changed?
 

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Posted by twisted54 (Member # 1981) on :
 
Hey Tony...I think you're gonne end up needing a new tune with the added cubes. You should at least put it on a dyno to check out your A/F and then decide if you want to get a new chip and tune.

Tony

EDIT: Shaun (93 Pony) is good guy and he definately knows his stuff. He helped me with my cam and intake as well as bringing my compression back up on my #1 cylinder.

[ January 15, 2006, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: twisted54 ]
 

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Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 95331StrimVert:
It has been argued that the 36s are small. But if the rails and connectors are drilled out and the pressure bumped up just a little bit I should be ok there. That’s what I’ve been told. I’m Not an expert here…

The pulley is a 3.3 I think. And it was running 9lbs of boost on the 331.
The deal with the cam is that I that I didn’t want to re-tune the auto logic chip. I heard that it’s hard to get an Auto-logic tuner around the Bay Area these days. Wouldn’t I need to re-tune if the cam is changed?

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quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:
XE274HR, retarded 4 degrees.

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I actually have a? on that for you.....

What is the advantage of retarding the cam so much?...Do oyu get more peak Tq out of it?....just wondering because once I get my situation figured out..I'm still going to run by your recommendation and retard the cam....
 

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Posted by 66 AC COBRA (Member # 904) on :
 
your current block can take more power than those 36's could ever hope to make hp wise
 

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Posted by 95331StrimVert (Member # 6250) on :
 
Guys,
Thanks for all of your replies. A lot of advice for sure. Maybe I should just stick with a 331 build and keep everything else the same. Seems like if I step up to the 347, I will need larger injectors, a new cam, a smaller pulley, a new tune, water injection (not sure if I feel safe with that one, as it could loose an injector and I would be screwed)... Damn, what to do do dooooo? I’m not trying to make all the power in the world, as this is a (street car????), and it must pass smog, and smoke a few bikes from time to time;-)

Anyone what to throw out a price on the additional mods, tunes and all?

Thanks,
 

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Posted by TrickRacer50 (Member # 6345) on :
 
The XE274HR cam is a great cam that passes CA smog, but I am not sure how good it would be for a blown car.

Comp makes an XE cam for a blown application. The advantage to all of the XE cams is that they make high vacuum, which is what helps them pass smog.
 

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Posted by rico91stang (Member # 2389) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 66 AC COBRA:
your current block can take more power than those 36's could ever hope to make hp wise

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Ditto unless you are winding it to the moon, which you probably won't be with the e-cam.

A dart block seems a little (read LOT) extreme for your power output, but if you want reliability then.... good choice.
 

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Posted by rico91stang (Member # 2389) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 95331StrimVert:
Guys,
Thanks for all of your replies. A lot of advice for sure. Maybe I should just stick with a 331 build and keep everything else the same. Seems like if I step up to the 347, I will need larger injectors, a new cam, a smaller pulley, a new tune, water injection (not sure if I feel safe with that one, as it could loose an injector and I would be screwed)... Damn, what to do do dooooo? I’m not trying to make all the power in the world, as this is a (street car????), and it must pass smog, and smoke a few bikes from time to time;-)

Anyone what to throw out a price on the additional mods, tunes and all?

Thanks,

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quote:

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Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
as always I disagree with you. And have posted dyno sheets that prove it doesn't always work like that with the XE series cam. I guess some things will never change LOL. I will say again and again retarding this cam in a blown aplication is a waste of your time and could cost you some HP and TQ

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You have dyno sheets of the XE274HR retarded 4 degrees vs 'as ground'? Please post them up!
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
Nothing wrong with Keith Craft engines. They are a little spendy on machine work. So far this year I have ordered 2 Dart block engines from them one complete for a friend of mine a 347(XE274 for smog reasons). Then for me a 410, iron eagle 9.5 Block and rotating assy( I will build my own.)anyhow last time I tried to post a dyno sheet it wouldn't work correctly.Not sure why I am lacking on some computer skills LOL.
I am sure you won't agree with this also but on a N/A set up I would try retarding the cam but not on a S/C set up. BTW we have done back to back(weekends not races so there could be other factors weather cond were very close) drag strip runs with a carwith 317 stroker with a S-trim AFR185 heads systemmax intake XE 274 cam. The cam was retarded at first then set straight up(dot to dot, don't need that argument again LOL)there actualy wasn't a difference in perfomance. according to the clocks.

[ January 19, 2006, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
 

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Posted by need-a-cage (Member # 5415) on :
 
2-stangs,

Can I have some details on your 331. From your mph you have it putting out some good numbers. I still don't know what cam to get. If I don't port my heads and intake, then it will be a low rpm motor. I also want to reuse my pedastal mount 1.7 ratio rockers, so I can't get too crazy with the lift.

Any info is appreciated. I will probably start ordering parts in about 6 months.

Thanks,
Craig
 

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Posted by 95331StrimVert (Member # 6250) on :
 
My new short block is coming from Keith Craft. The last 331 came from him. It didn’t last past 4 years. We all know production blocks can’t handle the 470+rwhp for long.

So who has a cam for me? And is anyone interested in my old Scat, 331 rotating assembly with blower ready dished JE pistons and my e-cam? Still good stuff:-)
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
my 331 list of parts is not to impresive
scat 4340 stroker kit stock block stud girdle.
XE274 cam set as ground, GT40 X heads I ported,Trickflow street heat intake port matched 3/8 spacer. 65 mm TB and egr plate. Mac Equal length shorties. V2- SQ trim 2.95 pulley snow boost cooler. This car is a true daily driver rain or shine. BTW 95331STrimvert 4 years out of a stock block blown setup is pretty impresive
 

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Posted by 95331StrimVert (Member # 6250) on :
 
Thanks and I do agree. And, to be honest I’m surprised it lasted that long with me. I never gave it a brake... Having great street power is very addictive... Have you ever thought about your snow system and what could happen if you loose and injector at WOT?
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
I have thought about it but I test it all the time to make sure it is working. When ever I really stand on it I use 100 octane fuel anyhow. For normal street driving I always keep the timming retard set to be safe.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
BTW we have done back to back(weekends not races so there could be other factors weather cond were very close) drag strip runs with a carwith 317 stroker with a S-trim AFR185 heads systemmax intake XE 274 cam. The cam was retarded at first then set straight up(dot to dot, don't need that argument again LOL)there actualy wasn't a difference in perfomance. according to the clocks.

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How was drivability with the camshaft in either position? Any noticable difference there?
 

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Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
2stangs I think you know you'd need more time than 4-5 runs in consecutive weekends to show true baseline runs vs. other. Shift points would need to be altered and if it's under the factory rev limiter then yeah, it probably won't run any faster because it'd want to shift at 6500 with boost in the retard position. Would your car or his make more power with a bigger cam? I'd like to see these dyno sheets you posted. I don't know why you think it'll cost you power. Why would you retard it NA and not blown? It seems you still have your cam positioning out of whack too. straight up is not dot to dot

[ January 20, 2006, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: AaronC ]
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
LOL I thought I changed it just for you guy's in one post I said as ground dot ot dot oops. on the cam degree change it wasn't my car so as far as the shift points and reving it was kind of limited to what he was willing to try. I will find out about the driveability for you. the reason I might try retarding it N/A is because I always change the cam timming just to find out if it helps. When I was racing my 69 I tried all different positions and what I have really found out is if you have a correct cam for your aplication to begin with the amount you gain from retarding or advancing your cam 4 degrees from were it is ground will give you very small if even noticeable improvments. Plus with a centrifical supercharger you are going to raise your rpm range anyhow. Wht sacrafice any low end power. I have one dyno sheet in my pic profile for a 347 N/A comp cam (I think it was the XE282)that lost tourqe and HP buy going from 4 degrees advance to straight up. It just isn't that good of a scan. If I was building my 331 supercharged engine for Max HP instead of a daily driven car that had to pass smog. I wouldn't be running most my combo LOL. I am building a 410 supercharged combo(for my 69) that I have no restrictions except cash so that will be my high HP set up.
 

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Posted by need-a-cage (Member # 5415) on :
 
I have been racing my stock shortblock 302 for 10 years now, 4 of which were with 8psi of boost running 12.0 @ 115mph and 1 of which was with 10psi of boost running mid 11's at close to 120mph but it kept slowing down as the motor got tired. The block seems to have held up, but my rings must be gone. I have tons of crankcase pressure. Oil is leaking from everywhere because of all the pressure. I added breathers for the last couple seasons of drag racing and had to install catch cans to collect the oil coming from the breathers. I raced it almost every Wednesday since 1995, when I bought the car. However, I don't think that I want to risk using a stock block if I go to a 331. It needs to last a loooooong time. IF my pregnant wife lets me spend all this money now, I will not get any more for the car fund until the kids are out of college!

Craig
 

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Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:
LOL I thought I changed it just for you guy's in one post I said as ground dot ot dot oops. on the cam degree change it wasn't my car so as far as the shift points and reving it was kind of limited to what he was willing to try. I will find out about the driveability for you. the reason I might try retarding it N/A is because I always change the cam timming just to find out if it helps. When I was racing my 69 I tried all different positions and what I have really found out is if you have a correct cam for your aplication to begin with the amount you gain from retarding or advancing your cam 4 degrees from were it is ground will give you very small if even noticeable improvments. Plus with a centrifical supercharger you are going to raise your rpm range anyhow. Wht sacrafice any low end power. I have one dyno sheet in my pic profile for a 347 N/A comp cam (I think it was the XE282)that lost tourqe and HP buy going from 4 degrees advance to straight up. It just isn't that good of a scan. If I was building my 331 supercharged engine for Max HP instead of a daily driven car that had to pass smog. I wouldn't be running most my combo LOL. I am building a 410 supercharged combo(for my 69) that I have no restrictions except cash so that will be my high HP set up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 2stangs69-91:

I like the way you always refer to blowers as bandaid's LOL they are power adders. I like the fact I can cruise my car and use it as a daily driver run smaller cams and lower compression have very good street manners have AC ,powersteering then go run 128 in the 1/4 you get the best of both worlds. N/A setups are cool but there is a reason all the top mustang clases are won buy cars with power adders they work.

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I refer to blowers as band aids because they overcome the intake restrictions an NA motor can't. You can get away with sub par parts because the blower is making the power not the motor. Your car runs hard but the hotter 347's run faster and still have A/C/power steering etc. Mayber they're not daily drivers because they're chosen not to be but I wouldn't have a problem driving my 342 daily. It's not nearly as radical as you'd think. As far as race classes go they're exactly that, race classes. You won't have power adder vs. NA cars in the same class. I'm not saying they don't work because they do. They do offer more driveability as 93Pony's turbo car literally drives like a bone stock 93 cobra. As far as smog goes, passing a sniffer and the visual are 2 different things. The guys with the hot NA stuff still get their smog taken care of
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
the hotter 347's hook better thats why they are faster. I don't plan on slicking up my 91 anytime in the future so I probably will never keep up with them. My 1.70 60 foots are not up to par LOL. and I did notice the amount of hot cars still with smogs be carefull I know a guy poped buy the BAR they took his vin number when he was at Sac and waited that is why my old school mustang is getting my new motor set up not the 91.

[ January 21, 2006, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
 

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