This is topic 01 Cobra - ATI or Vortech? in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 
It's time to get blown... but I'm in a fix trying to decide what to get. I like the Vortech system because of their reliability & completeness of their kits (specifically looking at the V-2 SQ-Trim with aftercooler). It just seems to be a very well thought out & designed kit. I'm also looking at the ATI P-1SC procharger kit with aftercooler. Right now, I'm going to have to leave the engine internals stock (not forged) for the next year (I'm going to keep this on a cash basis so the budget isn't unlimited)... so please keep this in mind when you make your recommendations.

Basically I'm looking for good (not huge) power gains on a stock block - and later, a system that can be easily upgraded for great performance on a built engine capable of 14+ psi of boost running higher octane gas (I don't want to have to run 100 octane, but blending to yield 94 is well within reason). I'm also looking for a system that is tuner friendly - something that they feel comfortable with and have worked on in the past.

Thanks in advance for your time & advise

[ November 21, 2004, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: sn8k ]
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
Either kit will work great on your car, but you may have greater reliabilty if you go with the Vortech.

Both are "tuner friendly"

[ November 20, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Jeff S ]
 

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Posted by Quick 88LX (Member # 1950) on :
 
From what I have read and seen in person, the air to air intercoolers are the best for street/strip forced induction application. Other than that either one will give you some nice gains.
 

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Posted by 1Sicgt (Member # 714) on :
 
Kenne Bell has a kit for your car. You can run the low boost intercooled set-up and still get better numbers than either of those chargers. Plus KB's are very complete kits. So far, they have prooven themselves well.
 

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Posted by Cobra5.0JEEP (Member # 1482) on :
 
ATI
 

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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 1Sicgt:
Kenne Bell has a kit for your car. You can run the low boost intercooled set-up and still get better numbers than either of those chargers. Plus KB's are very complete kits. So far, they have proven themselves well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mtbaughs:
For your '01 you should consider going the KB route. Our shop has tons of experience tuning mod motors with KB's with california's crappy 91 gas. The main answer I really need to point you in the right direction is how the car is going to be used and where you want the boost to come on at. For road race cars I would not go with a KB blower as they sit right on top of the motor and produce a lot of heat on a car run for extented periods of time. I'm not a fan of prochargers. I've seen too many of them suffer from bad oil seals within the blower which in the end coat all your intake/intercooler ducting with oil. Since the MAF is inline or used in a blow through manner this may mean you'll be cleaning your MAF element if and when this oiling occurs frequently.

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It's not going to be a road race car... mainly a street/strip warrior.

Another reason for not wanting to go the Kenne Bell route is a very simple one - cost. The Kenne Bell blower is $6799.00 - over $1500 more expensive then the ATI or the Vortech kit. Doing this on a budget means that I'm going to have to compromise on a few things... not being able to buy the best stuff out there is something I'm sure a lot of people can relate to. However, just because it's not the best doesn't mean I can't get great results - and be happy with it. There is little contention that the Kenne Bell units are one of the best (if not THE best units) out there. It's simply a matter of $$$, not only for the kit but for the day to day operating costs.

I have heard that the older ATI units have had their fair share of problems (oil seal), and your post also supports this as being factual. But from what I've read elsewhere these issues have been resolved in the newer kits (maybe, maybe not). I've read some people being quite happy with the newer D-1SC blowers, so although I may be more inclined towards the Vortech - I still wanted to hear more on the ATI vs Vortech arguments before I decided one way or the other. You being familiar with the ATI and it's oil seal issues is making my decision a bit easier - thanks.
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
No problem...with that said my suggestion would be Vortech. You'll be hard pressed to find anything as reliable as their kit. I'd even go so far as saying that the Vortech kit is superior to the KB kit as far as reliability goes. I've also heard that procharger has fixed past issues with their kit but I wouldn't want to be the one to spend all that money to find out they had not. Better to stick with a known winner IMO
 

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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mtbaughs:
When it comes to boost level verses octane rating theres really only two things that can be adjusted. Either you run a blend and keep a healthy amount of timing in the car or you reduce timing to continue running 91. You can always go with a switch chip which will allow you to run full timing on a 100 octane tune and also flipping the chip back for when you want to run 91 octane with reduced timing. Our SCT chips or flashers can allow for many different custom tunes depending on your fuel rating or use

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Now that is almost scary - yes, I will be running an 4 bank SCT chip. My buddy has already bought the software and the flasher for his car, and my end is going to be buying a flasher for myself, the chips for both of us, & a burner. He's already playing around with the programming on his 03 Cobra - and we'll both be using that to fine tune our cars as the mods progress. Don't get me wrong... I'm going to get someone like yourself to do a custom tune on car once the blower has been installed as this (the initial tuning) is an area that I feel is best handled by the professionals for the first go around. However we're both going to be doing a lot of mods and such to our cars over the next few years, and having something like this available to allow us to do our own tuning makes more sense. 1/2 the fun of modding is doing the work yourself anyway, and learning how to do this is going to be invaluable down the line - as well as saving us money in the long run too.

Even though I may seem to know what I'm talking about some of the time (well, I'm still kinda ruff on the edges)- I have a LOT of learning to do. My buddy is the real expert... I'm just beginning.
BTW: Thanks again for the info and help

[ November 21, 2004, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: sn8k ]
 

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Posted by mtbaughs (Member # 4052) on :
 
Cool, good luck with it bud. If you guys have any software questions feel free to call us and we can help out. SCT is also really good with their software support.
 

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Posted by NO MANRZ (Member # 566) on :
 
If your going to be tuning down the road make sure you get a nice wide band 02 setup.

Have you looked at the hp twin turbo kit? Looks nice!
 

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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by NO MANRZ:
Have you looked at the hp twin turbo kit? Looks nice!

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Yes, it does . I gotta stay away from turbos - something like that would almost guarntee that I would go into dept to get forged internals. All bad .
 

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Posted by 00NIGHTMARE (Member # 1010) on :
 
Mark, even though i've heard ATI has quality/reliabilty issues and i dont know if has been fixed yet, i would go with them cause they seem to put more hp, and even more tq than vortech's non aftercooled kits do. plus they come standard with an intercooler. i wish i had one cause i'de be putting 400rwhp with just 8psi rather than having 11-12psi to accomplish that with the vortech.
 

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Posted by 2stangs69-91 (Member # 1951) on :
 
Centrifical over KB in MY opinion. I really like my Vortech. They make a sweet kit very well planed out. Nightmare go with a alch meth kit and crank up your timming you will put down the numbers you want with your vortech.

[ November 22, 2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: 2stangs69-91 ]
 

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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 00NIGHTMARE:
Mark, even though i've heard ATI has quality/reliabilty issues and i dont know if has been fixed yet, i would go with them cause they seem to put more hp, and even more tq than vortech's non aftercooled kits do. plus they come standard with an intercooler. i wish i had one cause i'de be putting 400rwhp with just 8psi rather than having 11-12psi to accomplish that with the vortech.

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Hi Scott - yes, I agree with you that the prochargers seem to be making better numbers. From what I gather, they have a newer design impeller the Vortech (the procharger being developed after Vortech) and with that, the ATI units generate less heat and moves the air more effeciently (again, a later design will usually have the edge on previous versions). These are all excellent pluses in the procharger's favor - and why I was considering them.

Vortech on the other hand may be lacking in these parameters - however the unit I'm looking at (the V-2 SQ kit) was intended & designed for my specific application... bolting up to a stock motor. Each system is 100% complete, engineered to deliver good performance and long term engine durability at safe boost levels on stock engines.

Reliability & a good kick in the ass is what I'm looking for at this time, not maximum performance. Now later after I rebuild the engine with all forged internals, port & polished heads, cams, ect. - that will be the time when I start to consider maximum performance... and let's face it, the V-2SQ may be hard-pressed to do that. I might have to upgrade to the T-trim at that point... but to be honest, that's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it.

After considering the options and doing a lot of reading over the last few weeks, it looks like the Vortech has come up number one. Now all I have to do is gather up the funds to get it - always easier said then done. But the wife unit has already given me the green light for the lions share of the income tax refund, so it's just a matter of time.
Thanks to everyone for their input - it's made this process a lot easier.

[ November 22, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: sn8k ]
 

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Posted by 98Snake (Member # 183) on :
 
I went through the same "crisis" as you did last year. I settled on the Vortech. Yeah I don't make as much power as some kits, but +150rwhp over stock is plenty for me.

Here is my setup:
Vortech V1 w/ 2V Impeller (I like it loud )
No aftercooler
3.33 pulley
AFM Powerpipe
Gauges, Injectors, MAF, Boost-a-Spark, Tune etc.

~400rwhp @ 6000rpm's (9-10lbs)
The car makes about 6-7lbs of boost @ 5000rpms.
(Probably 1-2lbs more of boost with a V2SQ)

I set it up so that the boost comes on earlier and kept the rpm's down, just to keep it a little safer on a stock block. If I need more power, I can install headers and bring it up 15-20rwhp. I can add an aftercooler, and bring it up to about ~450-475rwhp. More than that? I'll probably need a forged block, new tranny, new driveline. I think I'll keep the power down for now and save some cash.

[ November 23, 2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: 98Snake ]
 

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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 98Snake:
I went through the same "crisis" as you did last year. I settled on the Vortech. Yeah I don't make as much power as some kits, but +150rwhp over stock is plenty for me.

Here is my setup:
Vortech V1 w/ 2V Impeller (I like it loud )
No aftercooler
3.33 pulley
AFM Powerpipe
Gauges, Injectors, MAF, Boost-a-Spark, Tune etc.

~400rwhp @ 6000rpm's (9-10lbs)
The car makes about 6-7lbs of boost @ 5000rpms.
(Probably 1-2lbs more of boost with a V2SQ)

I set it up so that the boost comes on earlier and kept the rpm's down, just to keep it a little safer on a stock block. If I need more power, I can install headers and bring it up 15-20rwhp. I can add an aftercooler, and bring it up to about ~450-475rwhp. More than that? I'll probably need a forged block, new tranny, new driveline. I think I'll keep the power down for now and save some cash.

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Well, to be honest my "crisis" began with a 4 door Mercedes pulling on me when I was in the sweet spot of the power band in third (it was an AMG so I ain't that butt hurt about it).. but still.... getting pulled on by a 4 door just don't give me that warm fuzzy feeling. So after a little bit of "reflection", I thought it might be better to just trade in the 01 for a new 04 Cobra. However the dealership only offered 16.5K on my trade in - I knew that wasn't going to happen (my car payments would have remain the same as now - just last 4 years longer). So I decided since the 01 will be paid off in 2 years, it seems like a great time to really start on a serious mod plan that will eventually get me to 500+RWHP.

I'm going at this just like you are... get the blower and start off slowly - keeping the power down and saving some cash (and the stock internals ). No need to get greedy... just a safe boost level, a safe tune, and a little above 400RWHP will do me fine for the next year or so. I'll probably do the live axel swap & new tranny before I build the motor - just makes more sence to have everything in place before adding a boat load of power to the mix.

Thanks for the post - helps me realize that I need to keep the big picture in focus.
 

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Posted by mustanggt5091 (Member # 444) on :
 
I have to say go with a turbo, evan a single and keep the boost down if your worried, you wont regret it( your snake will really hiss ) But with that said, either will give you great numbers, buy whatever is cheaper since your on a budget and has the best warranty.
 

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Posted by 9cobra9 (Member # 4470) on :
 
how much hp would a t-45 tranny be able to handle? and how much power and boost can a 99 cobra engine be able to handle with out changing the internals? thanks. good thread
 

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Posted by sn8k (Member # 574) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 9cobra9:
how much hp would a t-45 tranny be able to handle? and how much power and boost can a 99 cobra engine be able to handle with out changing the internals? thanks. good thread

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The tranny won't last long with hard launches or if you start runing stiky tires (slicks) or when going above 400RWHP. It should be OK for everyday street driving on regular street tires (nitos, Kuhmos, ect.). Boost - 8 MAYBE 9 lbs as long as it's intercooled with a conservative tune running an 11:1 A/F... the conservative tune is the trick. That's the trick with the hyperthunetic (sp) pistons/rods. Very strong as long a thay don't get too hot... lean conditions will certainly cause a burned piston, or worse. JMHO though

I've seen 485RWHP with stock internals on 9.5lbs of intercooled boost, but I would think that engine is on a short fuse.

[ November 29, 2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: sn8k ]
 

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Posted by 98Snake (Member # 183) on :
 


[ November 29, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: 98Snake ]
 

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Posted by 98Snake (Member # 183) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 98Snake:

quote:

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Originally posted by sn8k:
It should be OK for everyday street driving on regular street tires (nitos, Kuhmos, ect.). Boost - 8 MAYBE 9 lbs as long as it's intercooled with a conservative tune running an 11:1 A/F... the conservative tune is the trick. That's the trick with the hyperthunetic (sp) pistons/rods. Very strong as long a thay don't get too hot... lean conditions will certainly cause a burned piston, or worse. JMHO though

I've seen 485RWHP with stock internals on 9.5lbs of intercooled boost, but I would think that engine is on a short fuse.

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