This is topic Copper head gaskets? in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
Has anyone used these gaskets before? What are the pros and cons of them? I dont mind the cost, as long as they dont blow. My car is supercharged and ive been blowing the fel pro HG's. Thanks for the input. [patriot]
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SCE%2D036064
 
Posted by Jdub07 (Member # 2728) on :
 
I've heard good and bad about them. I hear you can re-use them and that they don't blow out. I also hear that the seal sucks or can suck. I don't know myself but I have a set of MAC copper header gaskets that I have yet to put on my car. I was hoping to get them on or at least on one over the weekend. When I finally do I'll post the results. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
Anyone else??? Thanks for the info BTW. [patriot]
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Don't run them on a true street car you drive everywhere. If you're blowing head gaskets, that means you're running too much timing or not enough fuel. [patriot]
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Don't run them on a true street car you drive everywhere. If you're blowing head gaskets, that means you're running too much timing or not enough fuel. [patriot]
why not use them on a street car? I was running 7 degrees of timing, 255 intank, 30lb injectors and an FMU. I cant see how any of this could cause a problem with only 6 psi.
 
Posted by 92coupe (Member # 1957) on :
 
i had the copper header gaskets on my old coupe werent bad at all. and dustin dude, buy some o-ringed heads problem solved. ill sale you mine for 1,500.
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
I wish I could man, but I dont have 15 bills to drop, or I would. I have too much other shit to buy right now, just to get it up again.
 
Posted by Jdub07 (Member # 2728) on :
 
I COULD BE WRONG but I also heard that if you heat them up first like with a torch it takes some molocuels out or something making for a better seal?...like I said I could be wrong...maybe I watch to much Monster Garage!! GO JESIE JAMES

Anyone have more info on this? [Confused]
 
Posted by 92coupe (Member # 1957) on :
 
ehh its cool dustin, i wasnt expecting you to throw down 1500 on my heads even though they would come with hardened pushrods and RR's. [Smile]

but i heard with paper gaskets if you soke them in water before you install them they puff up and seal better.
 
Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER VERT (Member # 2754) on :
 
coper head gaskets are horrible on a street car for 1 reason. This reason is they will always leak water no matter what you do. I personally have had 7 sets leak badly. GO with a good set of felpro head gaskets and do not o ring the heads this can also cause coolant leaks into the cumbustion chamber. If you feel that you need the added strength have the block O ringed.My belief is that copper headgaskets were designed for drag only cars using block filler with little or no water. Anyways on your car if the head gasket blows its probably going for a good reason and saved your pistons. Just my .02
 
Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER VERT (Member # 2754) on :
 
second off head gaskets are not paper gaskets roflmao. I think you have a bad tuning problem to be blowing head gaskets at 6 psi what is your timing and your fuel pressure under boost with the 30s maybe i can help ya with this PM me with everyting that is going on i know a lot about supercharged 5.0s and i know i could help you get this thing running right. the felpro head gaskets are not the problem as i am running 14psi through mine with 0 problems. I think its going to be your tune.
 
Posted by big matt (Member # 1124) on :
 
could he blow em because he has warped heads????
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 92coupe:
i had the copper header gaskets on my old coupe werent bad at all. and dustin dude, buy some o-ringed heads problem solved. ill sale you mine for 1,500.
so youre coupe had copper HGs and you didnt have any problem?
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 91 5.0:
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Don't run them on a true street car you drive everywhere. If you're blowing head gaskets, that means you're running too much timing or not enough fuel. [patriot]
why not use them on a street car? I was running 7 degrees of timing, 255 intank, 30lb injectors and an FMU. I cant see how any of this could cause a problem with only 6 psi.
The nail was pretty much hit on the head earlier...

Yes, you have a solid foundatin for a fuel system given your setup, but that doesn't mean you can't run lean. You could need more fuel pressure, ect, cut back on timing, ect.

Copper head gaskets do leak water like mentioned above. You'll have to run a low pressure radiator cap and bleed the pressure everytime you shut the car off. Not something I'd enjoy doing on a true street car.

Just say NO to O-ringed heads on a stock block. You don't need them, you can make enough power to bust the stock bottem end with out O rings. If you can't hold down your head gaskets at your power/boost level then its one of four things:

1) Gaskets not properly installed

2) Heads/block deck are not perfectly flat

3) Too much timing advance for the octane fuel you're running

4) Too lean of an air fuel ratio
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
So what all do you suggest? What type of gaskets, and what to do about the tune?
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
How is it popping the head gaskets? Is it always one side or one cylinder?
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
I dont remember. I dont think so, but im not sure. The first and second set it blew, blew them on about 4 different cylinders. That may have been because the head bolts were re-used. The last set, I bought new ARPs and it worked fine for a while. Then one night I ran out of gas and the only thing around was some shitty arabian gas station so I had to use that. By the time I got home, the HG was blown again. This time it only blew in one spot though. I took the heads to a machine shop today and they said they were slightly warped so I had them machined. Any thoughts? Thanks for your help by the way. Im trying desperately to have this thing running right by june 14th. Gotta go smoke some chevys ya know. [patriot]
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
popping several cylinders at once with out noticing major detonation can be a sign of going lean. Put it on the dyno and see what your air fuel ratio is at.
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
I think it blew them because the head bolts were re used and the guy that torqued them down only put them to like 54ft/lb. When I did it, I bought new bolts torqued them to 88ft/lbs and it worked fine for a while. Then it just blew on cylinder number 5.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Cyl#5 is a common cylinder to go lean. Hook up a wide band O2 sensor to your car and see how the air fuel ratio is at WOT when you get it back together [patriot]
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
How do I do that and where can I use one? I dont want to spend 800 bucks on one. How can I solve this problem if its so common?
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Spend some time on the dyno equiped with a wide band [burnout]
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
I was afraid you were gonna say that. I dont have another 500 bucks for a dyno tune.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Its around $100/hr just to dyno with the wide band. Just your fuel pressure between pulls to get your air fuel ratio around 12:1 and you should be fine. I think Apex Motorsports gives discounts to CaliforniaFords.com members.
 
Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER VERT (Member # 2754) on :
 
You can always do the old method to save your head gaskets as a temp fix. Bump your fuel pressure up 20 psi and slowly back it down till it runs right under boost. I have seen 6psi blower work fine with 30lb injectors and no fmu so i bet you have a fuel pressure problem or a possible fmu problem what is your timing at.
 
Posted by 92coupe (Member # 1957) on :
 
i think its your timing, chris was running his 9-10psi blower with stock 10 degree timing with out a single problem.
 
Posted by 92coupe (Member # 1957) on :
 
oh yea, i said i had copper header gaskets on the coupe not HG's. but i didnt like em. they kinda leaked when it was cold then filled up when hot.
 
Posted by stoauto (Member # 2803) on :
 
what kind of heads are you using? aluminum or cast iron? if your using aluminum heads, dont use head gaskets with a steel shim core. Because of the different expansion rates of cast iron and aluminum the only head gaskets that will work are copper or composition. Maybe your heads are warped, have you tried getting them surfaced.
 
Posted by 66 InjectedCobra (Member # 819) on :
 
copper head gaskets are a great choice for a blown street car like yours.
You will never blow a gasket again not even W/ 20 psi [Eek!]
This is only true if they are set up RIGHT!!!!!!!!!

You need to surface your heads and have them cut to fit .041 wire in your heads or better you do them in your block if your willing to take the motor out for a week or so. Both surfaces must be perfectly flat for this set up to not leak water and cumbustion!!! Decked block and surfaced heads are a must!!! I would recommend where ever you decide to put the o-rings you put a reciever groove in the opposite surface. That is a cut that is about twice as wide as the o-ring and it gives a place for the copper to go when the o-ring pushes it during torque down!! That seals both the head side and the block side for combustion very well and at the same time letting the head come all the way down to seal those water leaks everyone talks about. That is why most people do not seal the water passeges and copper gaskets get a bad name..
You must also spray the gaskets W/ Hylomar COPPER HEAD GASKET SEALER right before install!! VERY IMPORTANT!!
Make sure to use a set of studs on your block too.

I used to blow the felpro's all day long just like you, but I never hurt the coppers at all.
Understand blowing gaskets is not because of boost but not being properly tuned. You are not using enough injector and you need a custom tuned chip.

If you decide to go copper then call Daves Engine Machine in Newark (510)797-9536 ask for Dave.
He has never had on leak on any of his copper set up motors...

Hope this info helps you out Bro [patriot]
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
I just got my heads decked. The machinist did say they were slightly warped. Do I really need to the heads or block o-ringed if I use copper gaskets? People have been telling me that I dont need to o-ring them at all even with regular head gaskets.
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 92coupe:
i think its your timing, chris was running his 9-10psi blower with stock 10 degree timing with out a single problem.
I was running 7 degrees base timing.
 
Posted by John91coupe (Member # 18) on :
 
Copper head gaskets are the best way to contain high boost and they help dissipate cylinder heat. They really need to have an imbedded wire in the head or block with a receiver groove opposite to work best. Properly prepared copper gaskets won't leak coolant on the street or track. Improperly prepared gaskets will surely leak. It is best to have the block deck machined flat as well as the heads to insure a good seal. Other safe guard procedures are to run a low pressure radiator cap and release the coolant pressure on engine shutdown. I know someone that does neither of the above and has not had any problems. I haven't had any problems either with mine.
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
This motor will only see a MAX of 12psi. That being said, what do you suggest? Also, these are stock heads, E7's, for those of you who asked.
 
Posted by John91coupe (Member # 18) on :
 
You don't want copper gaskets for that application. I have heard about a new blower gasket from Fel-Pro that is supposed to be their best and works pretty well. Part number is 1046.
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
I looked for those gaskets by fel pro, couldnt find them. Have a link??? [patriot]
 
Posted by John91coupe (Member # 18) on :
 
You might want to give them a call since I think the gasket is somewhat new. Sorry, I don't have their number.
 
Posted by 91 5.0 (Member # 1527) on :
 
ok. Thanks. [patriot]
 
Posted by 66 InjectedCobra (Member # 819) on :
 
John what did you use to seal the copper head gaskets on your car?
Hylomar?
Did you assemble the long block your self??
Are you useing 7/16 studs?
Thanks for the info [patriot]
 
Posted by John91coupe (Member # 18) on :
 
I used a product called Hi Tack copper gasket sealer. Originally my motor came from Kuntz with the heads assembled but due to a Stewart water pump problem I removed them thinking I had head gasket problems. Turns out the impeller came off the water pump and the result was that the engine temperature would keep climbing. I changed the pump and reinstalled the the heads with new gaskets and used the Hi Tack (recommended by Kuntz).

This block uses 1/2" head bolts.
 




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