quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Problem is that the Vortech isn't making the air that hot at your boost level. If you add an intercooler or after cooler, the gains from the cooler air won't make up for the loss of boost and you'll actually end up losing power. If you want the motor to last a long time, run a little less base timing as an insurance to prevent detonation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Problem is that the Vortech isn't making the air that hot at your boost level. If you add an intercooler or after cooler, the gains from the cooler air won't make up for the loss of boost and you'll actually end up losing power. If you want the motor to last a long time, run a little less base timing as an insurance to prevent detonation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
I've heard that the physical obstruction of an intercooler/aftercooler is worth 2 PSI in itself.

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It can be measured. Simply measure the pressure just after the blower before the intercooler/aftercooler is installed. Then measure at the same sorce after the intercooler/aftercooler is installed. If the pressure increases, there is definate backpressure from the intercooler.... But it really depends on the design as to how much, if any, backpressure will be present. Size of the cooler & the airflow your running also plays a big factor.
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Come on guys, everyone knows that a 10 psi S trim car will LOSE HP if ALL you do is add an intercooler. Give all the false tech you want against this, but you can't agrue with results.

Rob- your example is flawed. The simple equation you setup assumes only one variable changes. If this was the case, I'd agree with you and your simple mathmatical model would hold true. In reality, an intercooler drops both temprature AND pressure (boost). This makes your mathmatical model more complicated and also useless with out real world data/numbers to plug into the equation.

Some random food for though: the gas and air are ignited into a hot FLAME well over 1,000 degrees F

93pony- "The pressure drop from the intercooler/aftercooler is due to less heat...thus the air is denser. No power loss will be seen from the drop in pressure." Sounds like shady corral tech to me (read my new signature). I can prove your statement wrong with straight equations or real world examples, your pick. As a gentleman, I'm letting you pick how I knott your noose j/k

Now here is your mission, go to www.yahoo.com and find the one guy out in cyberspace raceway that refutes what I said above

[ March 04, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
If you run an intercooler, and you pulley it to the same PSI you were running before, then you get the best of both worlds cooler charge, less tendancy for detonation, ability to run higher boost, etc.
I *think* most people do it this way.
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Shade-tree- Yes, most people with out outrageous interpretations of Physics do it this way Even then, at 10 psi, the gains are very small and not worth while. For the $1000+ will cost you, you're much better off spending that money elsewhere. *cough* headwork *cough* just a smaller pulley.
 

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Posted by CobramanPhil (Member # 2170) on :
 
The major issue I would have with fitting a vortech aftercooler (or an intercooler if you have even more beans) is cost. For the money, I would get the smaller pulley and the spend the rest of the dough on big fuel components...that would seem safer to me...

Phil

quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Shade-tree- Yes, most people with out outrageous interpretations of Physics do it this way Even then, at 10 psi, the gains are very small and not worth while. For the $1000+ will cost you, you're much better off spending that money elsewhere. *cough* headwork *cough* just a smaller pulley.

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
I think you can snag junkyard intercoolers for like $50-$100 each no? Like from a busted DSM (talon/eclipse/laser) call it ghetto but just take it to a muffler shop (seriously) have them bend some tubing and there you go, lol.

but yeah, pick up a magazine (say MM&FF) and slap down $1500 and they'll probably mail you a perfect fitting intercooler setup.
 

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Posted by rob (Member # 50) on :
 
that simple mathematical model (Ideal Gas Law)is one i learned while earning my associate degree in chemistry and is much more easily applied than PV=nRT, right?

Cooler air is denser, denser air makes more power, more power =

is that equation good enough?


 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
I don't think this discussion has devolved into quantum chemistry

however, for certain, you are not dealing with a fixed volume.
 

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Posted by rob (Member # 50) on :
 
it (the volume change) only contributes to increased kinetic entergy (heat).

you can see from the same equation that T is inversely proportional to volume, i.e. smaller volume = greater Temperature

you can run from physics and chemistry, but you cannot HIDE!
thankfully, you don't have to understand how a car works to go fast, but it sure HELPS!

[ March 04, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: rob ]
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
no all I'm saying is we don't have a controlled environment like the cylinder in an internal combustion engine where compression ratios and PV=nRT are almost 100% accurate (unless you're driving ST5150's car and have ~30% leakdown or whatever.... (obligatory) )

in a compressor/intercooler arrangement there is no defined cylinder, you have air moving continually in/out of a system where you can *approximate* a volume but you have first and second harmonics, pulses, waves, vibration and at the end of the day even individual impeller blades will contribute to a delta V.

I'll I'm trying to say is that in this system the volume is not absolute, but rather must be approximated.

PV=nRT will tell you basically what's going on in this situation though, again, all I'm trying to say is volume is not fixed so PV=nRT is out the window....
 

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Posted by BCINGUU (Member # 2397) on :
 
I run 14 psi of boost on my S-trim, and my ACT goes as high as 260 degrees at full boost. I'm running alcohol injection, which is cheaper than an intercooler or nitrous, and it drops the ACT down in the low 100s.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Come on guys, everyone knows that a 10 psi S trim car will LOSE HP if ALL you do is add an intercooler. Give all the false tech you want against this, but you can't agrue with results.

Rob- your example is flawed. The simple equation you setup assumes only one variable changes. If this was the case, I'd agree with you and your simple mathmatical model would hold true. In reality, an intercooler drops both temprature AND pressure (boost). This makes your mathmatical model more complicated and also useless with out real world data/numbers to plug into the equation.

Some random food for though: the gas and air are ignited into a hot FLAME well over 1,000 degrees F

93pony- "The pressure drop from the intercooler/aftercooler is due to less heat...thus the air is denser. No power loss will be seen from the drop in pressure." Sounds like shady corral tech to me (read my new signature). I can prove your statement wrong with straight equations or real world examples, your pick. As a gentleman, I'm letting you pick how I knott your noose j/k

Now here is your mission, go to www.yahoo.com and find the one guy out in cyberspace raceway that refutes what I said above

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With ONLY installing the intercooler you WILL gain power. The blower is still pumping out the exact same amount of air as it was before....& the engine is ingesting the same MASS of air....it's just cooler & thus more dense.

Here's the only thing. If you run an intercooler that's a bit small for the mass of air running through it, the air BEFORE the intercooler will have a higher pressure (higher boost) then before & will be hotter then the air was without the intercooler. Follow me?
So, the intercooler needs to work harder to cool the air...if it is not very effecient & the cooler is too small, the air coming out to the motor will not be much cooler + they're be a substantial pressure drop. This will definately cause the power to drop.

Slap on the right size Spearco & watch power jump....with less boost. It's all about the cooler you use.

Ah yes. You also pointed out another benifit to the Incon setup (or any turbo for that mater). No pulley change needed. The wastegates open when manifold pressure reaches a certain PSI. A cooler charge will make GOBS more power as the mass of air also increases....unlike a SC unless the pulley is changed.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
Consider a household vacuum cleaner with a 3' extension and standard pickup.
Is it drawing the same volume of air as when you have a 6' extension and the same pickup? Of course not
Your argument seems to be the 'motor is still spinning the same speed, so it should be drawing the same amount of air.', and you'd be wrong.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
My argument is simply this:

Which is better given the SAME mass of air output from the blower?
High boost & high aircharge temp
or
Low boost & low aircharge temp

Which of these 2 setups will make more power?
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
The intercooler is a restriction: plane and simple, just like a valve guide is to an overhead valve cylinder head, it's there, and it impedes flow.

If all you want is mass in your combustion chambers why not use H20

given that pressure drops across an intercooler, and you are attempting to increase airmass the most, I will have to refer you to an important theory:

the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

It tells me that in this closed system, you will not get 'work' for free--- read increased air mass/charge etc. by passing your airstream through some convoluted tubing under pressure.

In fact I guarantee you the highest air mass possible is by letting PV=nRT do it's thing and heat the air.

The gain you get is driveability under high temp situations and low octane gas. It's a no-brainer mod, but don't try to tell me you've defeated the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

An intercooler is a passive device--- it will take away energy (read airflow) period.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Alright....You're over my head now.

I think I'll stick with my low boost/cool air power adder setup for now.
 

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Posted by LAST302 (Member # 808) on :
 
This post whoring shit happened the last time I posted and I missed out. I get all of your points and they all make sense but the the end of this thread which is what I just reached I have one person saying intercooler means more power and one person saying intercooler means less power. Instead of power increases or decreases, how about this- Its over 100 degrees outside, will an intercooler help shit out or not? I dont care about power at this point. I got more than I expected when I built the motor. Now I just dont want it to break after spending 15k. Thanks
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LAST302:
Instead of power increases or decreases, how about this- Its over 100 degrees outside, will an intercooler help shit out or not? Thanks

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Definately.

A GOOD air to air, Bar/fin intercooler can lower the compressor temps to 15 degrees above ambient at peak compressor efficiency.
 

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Posted by rob (Member # 50) on :
 
before i ran my cobra at the track, i would have said someone was full of crap if they claimed a 79 HP increase with a power pipe!
seems to me that if you look closely at the answers, you will notice the folks with superchargers/turbochargers seem to agree.


 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Aww shucks, I missed the fun

Last302- A wise man suggested you drop your base timing 1-3 degrees "for safety" and enjoy your 5.O

Oh yeah, not going WOT on hot days or after long drives (heat soaked motor and fuel pumps) wouldn't hurt either.
 

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Posted by 4ADG952 (Member # 220) on :
 
You have got to like that last response!!!!!!! Words to live by.
Jim
 

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Posted by LAST302 (Member # 808) on :
 
Sawson- Like I said, I finally have a motor that is turn key, a/c, like out the door brand new showroom 542 hp car. I freakin love it!!! As of now and even last summer when it was hot out I did not have any timing issues. With the chip as you are well aware of I have the distributor at base 10 and have it advanced through the chip with the 4 way switch. Even before the tune from Byron it ran great and after the dyno tune it was even better. No problems at all to speak of I just am looking for the complete setup to make this sucker, well complete. I guess the next question is does anyone know of somewhere or brand that makes a setup for my year(95) cause I cant seem to find anyone(vortech) or am I going to be going the full custom route? Thanks you guys, what would I do without you?

BTW- she dont be likin the heat in the summer anyway so I try to keep her inside till the sun goes down but I am the kind of person that wants to know everything is copastetic!!!

[ March 04, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: LAST302 ]
 

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Posted by hidnn.o.s. (Member # 1219) on :
 
Scott, does your car make 542 rwhp or 466? Just curious.
 

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Posted by LAST302 (Member # 808) on :
 
Don- 466rwhp so I believe that equates to about 542 at the fly depending on whos calculation you use. Hows things going? Your Back ok now?
 

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Posted by hidnn.o.s. (Member # 1219) on :
 
Scott - My back feels better than it EVER has before. Seriously. It is incredible. If I knew the difference was going to be this good and quick I would have done it while in school.
 

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Posted by LAST302 (Member # 808) on :
 
Thats good, I am happy for you!! So I guess you wont be needing all those pain killers that you got laying around the house anymore??
 

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