This is topic How would you Build a 400HP 306? in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Assuming the shortblock used is a fresh .030 over 302 w/stock crank, forged rods, & pistons of your choice.

*NO S-TRIM BANDAID!* (you know who you are.)

BTW, this is for 400 rear wheel HP.

[ January 08, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
 

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Posted by cobraman1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
anything you wanna tell us shaun?
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by cobraman1994:
anything you wanna tell us shaun?

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Got a few grand I can have?
My shit's just about done.... But I'd love to build this for someone!
 

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Posted by 5.0Brian (Member # 262) on :
 
I'll take it!!! I already have a B50 block to work with. Who wants to pay for it for me(I don't have the money yet)?
 

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Posted by Quick 88LX (Member # 1950) on :
 
I wouldn't mind a 10 second motor!
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
I'd use TEA ported twisted wedge heads w/ a matched Holley intake and change the cam accordingly.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff S:
I'd use TEA ported twisted wedge heads w/ a matched Holley intake and change the cam accordingly.

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Which heads? The 205cc TW's that flow 305 CFM @.500 lift? The ones for $2200? Hmm...with the Holley & those heads, seems to me you'd lose some midrange torque....Even with the proper cam. Peak HP would be still be over 400RW though!


Those AFR165 PS2 heads flow ~300CFM @.500 lift & have ~182cc(or so) intake volume.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
I'd follow super stock 289 guys methods and do more with less.

solid roller, more compression, more rpm, and more power.

probably ported windsor Sr's, 12.5:1, a nasty high lift solid roller, maybe something like a 750 Holley 4-barrel, and a intake that works with it.

Nice big 4.88s out back and easy 10's on motor. 7500+ rpm shift points would put a grin on my face

of course the shortblock would cost a mint.
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
I'd follow super stock 289 guys methods and do more with less.

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Where is the less part.

[ December 30, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Jeff S ]
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
93PONY,

It may have slightly less torque in some areas, but will be just as quick if not quicker. Seems like a lot of the Pure Street racers use that head/cam combo.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff S:
93PONY,

It may have slightly less torque in some areas, but will be just as quick if not quicker. Seems like a lot of the Pure Street racers use that head/cam combo.

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Very true. At the track, you're not going to rely on mid-range torque except when gettin' out of the hole.
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
400HP = 350 rwhp... call me old fashion, but I'd just stick exhaust and an S trim on a stock 5.O motor and make low 300 rwhp... plenty for the street, and if I need to hit the 350RWHP mark, I'd just add a little bit of race gas and bump the timing. The car would be pretty much just as reliable, drivable and smogable as the day it left the dealership. Best of all, you can call Summit and order the parts tonight and be racing this virtual combo this Saturday

93PONY- This combo's output sounds like an extreme version of Aarons first motor... but its only making 10 rwhp more?

[ December 30, 2002, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
ignore my post above, I misread 400 FWHP, not RWHP
 

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Posted by Black94 5.0 (Member # 655) on :
 
Your combo sounds great except....what's "afr165ps2", I assume you mean stage 2 porting on afr 165cc's..why not port the 205cc's w/2.02's/1.60's & w/raised exhaust ports for even higher flow.. 305cc for a 306ci sound kinda big. Whatever flows about 280cfm@.600 valve lift should be good...11.-11.5:1 compression NO THANX!! You could save money on race gas just by lowering your compression,safer too. Maybe 10:1....Intake:same but w/70mm TB...Cam:-@.050 238int--240exh--108 lobe center look for 300lbs of torque over 3000rpm!!...1 5/8 long tubes!

[ December 30, 2002, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Black94 5.0 ]
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Black94 5.0:
Your combo sounds great except....what's "afr165ps2", I assume you mean stage 2 porting on afr 165cc's..why not port the 205cc's w/2.02's/1.60's & w/raised exhaust ports for even higher flow.. 305cc for a 306ci sound kinda big. Whatever flows about 280cfm@.600 valve lift should be good...11.-11.5:1 compression NO THANX!! You could save money on race gas just by lowering your compression,safer too. Maybe 10:1....Intake:same but w/70mm TB...Cam:-@.050 238int--240exh--108 lobe center look for 300lbs of torque over 3000rpm!!...1 5/8 long tubes!

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This is funny!
PS stands for Pure Street. These heads have been hand ported to flow 300CFM @.500 lift w/a very small cross-section, which increases the airflow velocity. Faster velocity = more power.
305cc??? Don't know were you got that.
This motor will run on pump 91 octane fuel! The cam will bleed off some cylinder pressure, but it'll still require a custom tune. Probably have close to the stock timing table (25 degrees total advance)
 

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Posted by SIR Paint Job with Tercel on N2O (Member # 1708) on :
 
how do you plan on getting 11.0-11.5:1 cr with afr heads and a 3" stroke... milling the shit out of the heads?
 

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Posted by Black94 5.0 (Member # 655) on :
 
PS stands for Pure Street..Thank you I did not know that... as for 305cfm I miss read I thought I saw 305cc..SORRY!The heads you discribe sound great for only $1700, but I still dont like the compression,it still sounds detonation prone!

[ December 31, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Black94 5.0 ]
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
Dome pistons are BIG combustion chambers
 

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Posted by White02GT (Member # 611) on :
 
Sounds good Shaun, I'll have you build my motor when I buy a fox body to road race.
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Hey rob, Pure Street is a pretty cool NMRA race class. Basicly, you can run any ported heads and intake along with a .500 maximum lift cam and no power adder. The record holder has gone 10.7's with Brodix ST 5.O heads and Holley Systemax Intake
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Hey rob, Pure Street is a pretty cool NMRA race class. Basicly, you can run any ported heads and intake along with a .500 maximum lift cam and no power adder. The record holder has gone 10.7's with Brodix ST 5.O heads and Holley Systemax Intake

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff S:
Dome pistons are BIG combustion chambers

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quote:

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Originally posted by 93PONY:

quote:

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Originally posted by st5150:
Hey rob, Pure Street is a pretty cool NMRA race class. Basicly, you can run any ported heads and intake along with a .500 maximum lift cam and no power adder. The record holder has gone 10.7's with Brodix ST 5.O heads and Holley Systemax Intake

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All I did was eliminate the restrictive cam.... Hell, slap on a 150 shot on the motor & shot for 9's!

Rob:
Compression is just a ratio. Cylinder pressure is what matters. If the heads or cam is too small to feed the motor with the proper amount of air, cylinder pressure will be low....no mater what compression you run.

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Shawn:

What your saying is with 11.5:1 compression and a set of heads that flow at 300cfm(great flow but you said it yourself velocity is crutial)and the cam that you discribed(true cam duration tends to reduce dynamic compression) on 91 pump gas, the engine wont detonate? I think with no timming advance, 10 degree base and total timming no higher than stock, you might be right....however I would not try to advance your timming....all I would advance is your fuel curve!!..I'd say it would definately need a custom chip(I think you said with a chip anyway).....My car used to detonate with 9.2:1 comp. stock heads and cam, int & exh., 24#'s, and 10 degree's base timming!!!....I think with no detonation your combo would be good for 390-400rwhp.

[ December 31, 2002, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Black94 5.0 ]
 

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Posted by racercosmo (Member # 1864) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SIR Paint Job with Tercel on N2O:
how do you plan on getting 11.0-11.5:1 cr with afr heads and a 3" stroke... milling the shit out of the heads?

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quote:

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Originally posted by SIR Paint Job with Tercel on N2O:
how do you plan on getting 11.0-11.5:1 cr with afr heads and a 3" stroke... milling the shit out of the heads?

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You can either use an off the shelf dome piston and open up the combustion chamber, or you could use a custom dome piston with the "out of the box" AFR combustion chamber size.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
The pistons will add a little compression, but you'd have to 'mill the shit out of the heads' to get it to 11 to 1. No big deal....AFR's have very thick decks.
 

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Posted by Black94 5.0 (Member # 655) on :
 
Shawn go up a few posts. I'm not very good at "quoting" yet.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Black94 5.0:
Shawn go up a few posts. I'm not very good at "quoting" yet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by racercosmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by SIR Paint Job with Tercel on N2O:
how do you plan on getting 11.0-11.5:1 cr with afr heads and a 3" stroke... milling the shit out of the heads?

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New pistons perhaps?

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quote:

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Originally posted by iron281:
Here's a nice little 12:1 306 ready to go-

http://www.cars-on-line.com/80must8343.html

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quote:

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Originally posted by SIR OneSlowPlitBumperonN2O& I'm gay:

12:1 cr, 5,000 rpm stall speed w/brake air shifted crossover delay, 4.56 Richmond gear, 33 spline strange spool, ladder bars, and coil overs. AND IT ONLY RUNS LOW 10s HIGH 11s.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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In all seriousness, do you have a clue? This is a 12:1 NA 306. Arguably faster than your S-trimmed 408!

and J302 heads too? wow. welcome to 10 years ago!

[ January 01, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by Black94 5.0 (Member # 655) on :
 
Thats a nice fox body, nat-asp(right?) 306ci high 10's for $8500 I like it
 

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Posted by SIR Paint Job w/ '84 Tercel on MTBE (Member # 1708) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:

quote:

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Originally posted by SIR OneSlowPlitBumperonN2O& I'm gay:

12:1 cr, 5,000 rpm stall speed w/brake air shifted crossover delay, 4.56 Richmond gear, 33 spline strange spool, ladder bars, and coil overs. AND IT ONLY RUNS LOW 10s HIGH 11s.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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In all seriousness, do you have a clue? This is a 12:1 NA 306. Arguably faster than your S-trimmed 408!

and J302 heads too? wow. welcome to 10 years ago!

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first off, fuck vortec. Second, in all seriousness, was my car ever tuned? Here is a bit of math for you:
25 total degrees of advance
minus 2 degrees for every pound of boost
15 lbs of boost.... how much total timing did i have under full boost? With an 8-9:1 a/f ratio?
still ran a tire spinning 11.50 @ 120mph. And I guarantee this gutted RACE car doesn't even trap that when it's running 100%.
You forgot to mention my 2500 stall, 3.89s, locker (no spool), and leaf springs when you mentioned the 408.

I can only hope the lord will let me run an 11.40 some day but I'm pretty sure I'll never be able to dip below the 11.50s. NEVER
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
You guarantee that this 10 second car is trapping under 120?

Indeed, the lunacy continues.
 

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Posted by SIR Paint Job w/ '84 Tercel on MTBE (Member # 1708) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
You guarantee that this 10 second car is trapping under 120?

Indeed, the lunacy continues.

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my guess is that it ran 11s more than it ran 10s, my friends full interior car ran 10.96 at 121, this car weighs less (look it only has one seat) so it probably traps around 118.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
Your right, I'm sorry. Your S-trimmed 11 second 408W is definitely more impressive than this guy's 10 second NA 306.

what was I thinking?

me = to you!

In fact, there isn't a combo on this planet that is 1/2 as cool as yours.

[ January 02, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by 281n/a (Member # 1465) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
Your right, I'm sorry. Your S-trimmed 11 second 408W is definitely more impressive than this guy's 10 second NA 306.

what was I thinking?

me = to you!

In fact, there isn't a combo on this planet that is 1/2 as cool as yours.

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lmao also you said fuck vortech they bought paxton so they are both the same company now
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
are you talking to me?

quoting feature = >>> you
 

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Posted by 281n/a (Member # 1465) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
are you talking to me?

quoting feature = >>> you

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quote:

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Originally posted by 281n/a:

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
Your right, I'm sorry. Your S-trimmed 11 second 408W is definitely more impressive than this guy's 10 second NA 306.

what was I thinking?

me = to you!

In fact, there isn't a combo on this planet that is 1/2 as cool as yours.

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lmao also you said fuck vortech they bought paxton so they are both the same company now

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yeah exactly, fuck vortech and paxton, same company, fuck them. If i hadn't already cut a hole in my car to fit the intake for the paxton i would have told paxton to shove this novi2000 up their ass and go buy a procharger.

and yeah shade-tree, my set up is much more impressive than a gutted race car with a carbed 302 running low 11s.

and who has an 11 second supercharged 408? last time i went to the track it ran a 13.2 @ 50 mph after I threw a blower belt so from now on please refer to it as a 13 second supercharged 408.

i can't wait till i finally get a time slip after my car is tuned so you will finally have to keep your ignorant mouth shut.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
I'm sure your car will be fast, but obviously the irony is lost on you if you make fun of a 10 second all motor 306 with what you drive.
 

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Posted by SIR Paint Job w/ '84 Tercel on MTBE (Member # 1708) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
I'm sure your car will be fast, but obviously the irony is lost on you if you make fun of a 10 second all motor 306 with what you drive.

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i built a street car, it's apples to oranges. it's a shame this world is full of idiots, i need to learn to just ignore them.
 

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Posted by iron281 (Member # 80) on :
 
Wow, didn't realize I would incite such a heated debate.
Just thought it was a nice little track car for the money. Too bad it's not EFI. If it was in this area though, I'd consider making the guy an offer. A 10 sec. all-motor, factory body car with a 306 is quick in my book.
You know, quick is relative, there's always somebody faster, always somebody slower.
An old HS friend of mine ran 8.50's in his '64 Nova, but he spent a boatload over the years to get there.
 

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Posted by 91PONY (Member # 206) on :
 
How would I build a 400HP 306?
I'd have 93PONY do it for me.....LOL
(Gotta lighten this thread up a little.... )
 

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Posted by SIR Paint Job w/ '84 Tercel on MTBE (Member # 1708) on :
 
i think the thread is dead
 

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Posted by 4.6 EATIN GM'S (Member # 1633) on :
 
damn my friend said he wanted to do the same set up like 3 weeks ago
 

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Posted by Camara90 (Member # 134) on :
 
Man this is the exact setup Aaron had been working up, but when he told me about it he said to keep it on the down low! Man you must have like tapped the phone or something!
 

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Posted by shadow50 (Member # 2265) on :
 
I'm always concerned about making my car legal.

But there's supposed to be a legal one on the market; how many HP can you get from a STROKER!!

Mark - 84 cfi to 92 EFI conversion in progress.
 

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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Camara90:
Man this is the exact setup Aaron had been working up, but when he told me about it he said to keep it on the down low! Man you must have like tapped the phone or something!

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Yep, I sucked it out of him one night....

I hear your shit is gonna be ready soon.
Can't wait to see that sucker run!
Pray for P2V clearance & no valvefloat!
 

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Posted by Camara90 (Member # 134) on :
 
i say my prayers every night
 

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