This is topic WooHoo! Ordered my cam today! in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners .
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Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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I finally did it! Ordered up a custom grind from CompCams.
Just a simple single pattern 218/218 113LSA .537 lift w/1.7's, but it should really wake my little motor up!
Hopefully it'll be here by the end of January. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Comp is out of Ford hydrolic-roller cores.
Can't wait to pop that puppy in!
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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Sweet. Are you going to dyno it afterwards to see how much RWHP you gained or just look for a MPH gain at the track?
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Sweet. Are you going to dyno it afterwards to see how much RWHP you gained or just look for a MPH gain at the track?
This new cam will increase the airflow through the motor + increase cylinder pressure dramatically. Hell yes I'm gonna get it dynoed & have the chip re-burned!
I'm no gumby. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by StoplightWarrior (Member # 211) on
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Hey keep us posted. I want to put a cam in the 94 Cobra, so I'd be real interested to see how it works!
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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quote:
Originally posted by StoplightWarrior:
Hey keep us posted. I want to put a cam in the 94 Cobra, so I'd be real interested to see how it works!
Totally different setup....
But, let me know your mods & I can find a nice cam that'll work well.
Posted by StoplightWarrior (Member # 211) on
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quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
quote:
Originally posted by StoplightWarrior:
Hey keep us posted. I want to put a cam in the 94 Cobra, so I'd be real interested to see how it works!
Totally different setup....
But, let me know your mods & I can find a nice cam that'll work well.
Shorty headers, mac hpipe w/cats, flows, pulleys, 65mm throttle body, mac cold air(but will be replaced with a pro-m soon) 3.73 gears and a Diablosport chip. Thanks!
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Are you keeping it this way?
No plans for heads/intake/supercharger anytime soon?
Wanna keep it smogable right?
Posted by Yellow94GT (Member # 431) on
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Shaun, this is great news bro. Let me know if you need any help wrenching. Oh yeah, and I want to be there when you degree that cam in. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by StoplightWarrior (Member # 211) on
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quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Are you keeping it this way?
No plans for heads/intake/supercharger anytime soon?
Wanna keep it smogable right?
Smog isnt as much of a concern But we might throw some AFR's on there too...Probably keep the stock intake...
Posted by 91PONY (Member # 206) on
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End of January?! By that time I'll be ordering mine!
Posted by RiddlerGT (Member # 113) on
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quote:
Originally posted by StoplightWarrior:
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Are you keeping it this way?
No plans for heads/intake/supercharger anytime soon?
Wanna keep it smogable right?
Smog isnt as much of a concern But we might throw some AFR's on there too...Probably keep the stock intake...
I woudnt keep the stock intake on a AFR set up only choking it, a missmatched combo wont make shit for power
Posted by StoplightWarrior (Member # 211) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RiddlerGT:
quote:
Originally posted by StoplightWarrior:
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Are you keeping it this way?
No plans for heads/intake/supercharger anytime soon?
Wanna keep it smogable right?
Smog isnt as much of a concern But we might throw some AFR's on there too...Probably keep the stock intake...
I woudnt keep the stock intake on a AFR set up only choking it, a missmatched combo wont make shit for power
So what intake would you match with the afr's and the cam?
Posted by Yellow94GT (Member # 431) on
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Performer RPM! ![[burnout]](graemlins/burnout.gif)
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RiddlerGT:
I woudnt keep the stock intake on a AFR set up only choking it, a missmatched combo wont make shit for power
But a stock intake for a 94 Cobra is a Cobra intake which would work quite well with a cleaned up lower. You wouldn't want to go to the Performer RPM unless you have 3.90 gears or higher and rev past the factory rev limiter.
Posted by SpdfreakLS1 (Member # 679) on
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Congrats Sean!!!!!
Posted by FordPny (Member # 510) on
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Hey sean its Alen from the last show,
Im glad your getting the cam you ever hella talking about at the show.
you still need to give me a ride in that thing.
![[patriot]](graemlins/patriot.gif)
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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The stock Cobra intake will work quite well w/a ported lower. The performer RPM will also work well if you plan on shifting above 6K.
I'd wait on the cam for now & get a custom grind once you finish everything else. (heads, exhaust, gears, etc)
If you really want a decent cam look for a used E or B....better yet a small XE series cam. I wouldn't waste my money on a new one though. A used one you can sell later on for whatever you buy it for.
I know of an E for sale if you're interested. & can install & degree the cam cheap. From the stock Cobra cam (T-bird) to the E, you can expect ~30HP.
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Sweet. Are you going to dyno it afterwards to see how much RWHP you gained or just look for a MPH gain at the track?
This new cam will increase the airflow through the motor + increase cylinder pressure dramatically. Hell yes I'm gonna get it dynoed & have the chip re-burned!
I'm no gumby.
Save the cam and dyno tune money and adress the real restriction... those GT40 heads on a 331 stroker bottem end
Will you change the clutch out and get an accurate track MPH/ET with the stock cam?
Posted by FireChickenLS1 (Member # 781) on
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what kind of #'s would u expect from this?
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Sawson....ah..you haven't changed. Buy me a Dart block & I'll slap on some AFR 165's w/2.02 valves & a Ported Performer intake.
These heads are good for 500RWHP. Isn't that enough?
The stage 3 clutch is sitting in the livingroom. I'm in the process of polishing the car again...gonna be a few days/weeks till I can get to dropping the trany.
Alen, met me at the dyno-tune appointment & I'll give you a ride.
My final goal is 500RWHP w/all the smog equipment & stock heads/intake. The cam will get me close, then I'll slap on an electric fan & maybe some underdrive pulleys.
Posted by cobraman1994 (Member # 467) on
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dude, if you got a dart block, then i hope youd match it up with the 1100 kit
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on
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Cool Shaun! Let me know when you need a hand.
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
Cool Shaun! Let me know when you need a hand.
Won't be for a while. Comp says they may not have Ford cores till January.
Should be an easy swap, don't even need to take off the lower intake. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Heather got me those bad-ass magnetic lifter holders for my B-day.
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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Yeah, call me a old fashion 5.O traditionalist time proven TFS+centrifical boost junky. We use to hang out on corral.net before Incon, AFR and custom cam addicts ran us out
70 RWHP is a lot to gain from a cam to hit the 500 rwhp mark, but no doubt some Trick flow TW's will get you that number for $1000 Of course Ed Curtis would never talk to you again, but your ranking on www.californiafords.com/fastest.htm would conderably shoot up
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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I don't know if my dyno graph is on the net anywere, but the power dropped off so fast that by just retarding the stock cam 6-7 degrees from were it is now will give me 35-40RWHP!
Power stays constant from 4800-5200, then drops like a rock. At 4800 torque is 470RW. Retarding the cam 6 degrees would pull the powerband 5-700rpm higher.
The custom that I made also has some unique valve-timing to keep the exhaust valve from opening in the powerstroke.
I guess we'll see what happens on the dyno.
You do know Ed C. runs TW's in his car right?
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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600-700 RPM? An inch of intake runner is worth about a 100 RPM offset in the power band. I've seen countless cars dyno and countless dyno test online and in magazines and have never seen one "thing" such as a cam, intake, headers, heads, ect offset the powerband 600-700 RPM, let alone retarding the same cam 6 degrees.
As for Ed, he doesn't run anything himself. He runs his fingers on the keyboard all day, spreading mis-information to make his pockets fatter.
Amoung certain local cirlces, "Ed Curtis" is a joke.... "12.4 NA, good job man, now if you had an Ed C. cam, you would have gone 11.4 short shifting" or "Nice flow numbers, 60 cfm gain from stock.... but Ed C. says he could get 100 cfm more than stock with 50 cc smaller runns", "Good job getting into the 10's man, but Bob Cosby's TT, Canfield AOD Ed C. car also ran 10's" I even heard that a custom cam Ed C. designed with the help of jod powered a generator to keep the Jews warm in the year 354 A.D. ![[worship]](graemlins/worship.gif)
Has an Ed C. cam made it out to northern california yet? Jeff S said some cams were here, but the cars weren't running yet?
[ December 03, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Sawson...have you been drinking?
Project 'Real Street' uses TW heads:
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/real.html
& yes, there are a few FTI cams coming to the area. Problem right now is no Ford Hydrolic roller cores....anywere.
Technically the cam I run now is an Ed cam...although it is a Ford Factory cam.
The new cam is not from Ed. It's from my head. Ed is the most knowledgable motor head I've ever run across.
& yes, advanceing/retarding the cam has a drastic effect on the powerband.
I retarded Drew's cam 6 degrees. He needed to lower timing cause it pinged (add cylinder pressure) & now hits the rev-limiter with ease. The motor should now peak @ ~6200-6300rpm. Before I moved it the motor fell on its face at 5500rpm.
Awefull lot of smack coming from a high 13 second setup.
Had to say it...
I know you've got plans for the beast.
Posted by StoplightWarrior (Member # 211) on
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quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
Sawson...have you been drinking?
Project 'Real Street' uses TW heads:
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/real.html
& yes, there are a few FTI cams coming to the area. Problem right now is no Ford Hydrolic roller cores....anywere.
Technically the cam I run now is an Ed cam...although it is a Ford Factory cam.
The new cam is not from Ed. It's from my head. Ed is the most knowledgable motor head I've ever run across.
& yes, advanceing/retarding the cam has a drastic effect on the powerband.
I retarded Drew's cam 6 degrees. He needed to lower timing cause it pinged (add cylinder pressure) & now hits the rev-limiter with ease. The motor should now peak @ ~6200-6300rpm. Before I moved it the motor fell on its face at 5500rpm.
Awefull lot of smack coming from a high 13 second setup.
Had to say it...
I know you've got plans for the beast.
93Pony, check your PM's
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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93PONY- Haven't been drinking, but I am really sick with the flu, but I'm sure next week, I'll still think Ed C. is an internet tele-marketer
As for Drew's motor, if his power band was raised and he gained in theory 30-40 rwhp, wouldn't it have shown in his trap speed? I was under the impression that he gained nothing by switching from his E cam.
As for my 13 second beast... its all good, I know my standing on www.californiafords.com/fastest.htm
I've always thought it doesn't matter how fast a guy runs, but what he uses to get there... for example a civic guy with bolt ons running 14.9's probably has some good tips and tricks I can learn from, even though he's barely out of the 15's. On the flip side, a Viper guy running 12.5's with some bolt ons probably has nothing to offer me as far as tips and tricks go, even though he is over two seconds faster than the 14.9 second Civic guy.
Same goes for 'stang too... a guy making 235 rwhp out of a stock motored 5.O has some good tips and tricks I can learn from, but a guy with a 245 rwhp '99 GT probably has little to offer.
Being close to Apex, Mustang Ranch and Charlies Mustangs for several years, I've seen a ton of combo's. I've seen everything from strokers with Vortech T trims not make it past 450 rwhp to stock bottem end + TFS + E cam + cobra intake + S trim + power pipe make 450+ rwhp. I've seen heads/intake/cam 302's make 255 rwhp and 351W's make 275 rwhp. On the flip side, I've seen the same displacement motors make about 100 rwhp more with the same, but better chosen top half of the motor.
After a while I've grown to care more about cars running in my own back yard than internet theory combo cars 2-3000 miles from me. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the combo's listed here: www.cafords.com/fastest.htm
Top runners of each "class":
5.o NA- #1) TFS heads +TFS1 cam, #2) GT40X heads + B cam #3) TFS heads + TFS1 cam
5.0 + power adder- Waiting for updates on this, I can think of countless cars that should be on this list but haven't submitted their times yet. The people listed so far don't represent the cream of the local crop.
Stroker 5.O class- #1) If this is the maroon LX I think it is, it had either Victor Jr's or TFS's and a carburator. #2 and #3) AFR 185's + hi-tech cams.
Stroker 5.O + power adder class ) #1) TFS heads, don't know the cam and intake, #2) TFS heads, "off the shelf" comp cam as far as I know and hogan upper intake with TFS-R lower #3) TFS heads, don't know the cam, GT40 intake.
Are you noticing a trend here? What's fast on Corral.net isn't what's fast in our back yard... personally I care more about whats fast in my own back yard because I don't race at corral.net raceway.
[ December 03, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
Posted by StoplightWarrior (Member # 211) on
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Sawson...that post was AWESOME!! Great stuff, great outlook on the racing scene!
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
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st5150,
Yes I have 2 buddies running FTI cams. One of the cars just fired up last week and we're getting ready to tune it. It should be a good comparison with Camara90 and 93lx342 since it's a 347 with out of the box AFR 185's and a performer RPM intake.
The other car should be up and running within the next few days however the cam was not degreed in due to the owner being a LAZY ASS ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
This car is a stock bottom end 302 with AFR 165's pedestal mount and a GT-40 upper(for now, a RPM once he gets one) 1 5/8" LT's and 4:10's
Re: the Stroker 5.O class Maroon LX, it had ported Edelbrock RPM heads.
[ December 03, 2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Jeff S ]
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Drew should've gained more like 20hp peak & 5-10 under the curve. You know the HP equation. Moving the torque curve higher in RPM's above 5252 will give more HP. It really depends on the initial curve on how much can be gained/lost with moving the valve-events.
The problem that I see w/Drew's setup is the rev-limiter. Peak power moved from 5500 to ~6000-6100 I think. So, he went from shifting at 6000 to shifting as close to the rev-limiter as possible. Idealy, you want to shift 4-500rpm above your peak HP to give max MPH in the 1/4. With the stock rev-limiter, he'll never get there. Aside from that, on nearly every run he hits the limiter, which pulls fuel/timing....& doesn't it store tables & cause the car to go into 'limp' mode sometimes???
As for the tried & true combos....those H/C/I blower cars only putting out 450RWHP are weak. Better valve events alone would give more impressive results. Add faster ramp-rates, which means more .200 duration (were heads REALLY flow) & the power just keeps coming.
As for the fastest cars around here.... You have said that it's pretty sad that there are so many slow HCI cars in Norcal. I agree. & like you said, not many custom ground cams around here.
Most of these slow HCI cars are suffering from poor valve-events, intake air-charge & exhaust gasses stalling in the manifolds causing surging, etc.
Mike Camara's GT ran as hard as those blower cars....w/an AFR/custom cam combo 347.
Aaron's car was well over 400flywheel HP this time around....on a 306 w/AFR's & Mikes old cam. It got faster after you rode in it BTW. Added fuel & it responded quite well.
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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I'm really interested in seeing what kind of numbers the stock bottem end 5.O puts up. Did he get a fairly "wild" Ed cam?
As for the Maroon LX, are you sure its ported performer heads? I could have swore he posted here once it was Victor Jr's. The most I've ever heard of Performer heads flowing is about 270 cfm
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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He didn't degree the cam in!?! D'oh!
That could have a serious impact on performance. Most cams I've degreed have been off by 4 degrees or more.
Some of those timing chains out there are terible! Even those expensive Big-name ones.
I've found to FMS 9-position to be pretty accurate (within 1 degree).
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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93PONY- I don't know Drew's combo and his combo is such an odd ball performer , won't even try to guess what his dyno graph looks like
As for H/I/C+boost "summit catalog" combo's making 450+ rwhp with a stock bottem end, I think its pretty good. In theory you can take any 5.O and a summit catalog and over a weekend turn it into an Exotic car killer that still passes smog. What more could you want? I'm a huge fan of simple combo's that run hard. For example Bob Cosby's mid 12 second stock motored LX is my hero, but I poop on his ported canfield headed, twin turbo, holley intake, built AOD, Ed C. Cam, 10.9 second LX.
As for the 5.O + power adder class, just quickly thinking of a few that should be on the list... Jeff Peterson's victor Jr heads + off the shelf comp cam + S trim LX running 11.2's and Paul Booth's 11.3 second TFS heads + nitrous + comp cam notch.
Either way, I'm a spectator.... let me pull up my lawn chair and see what works and what doesn't work for people... I already have a pretty good idea of what has worked pretty damn good over the past 5 years here. Bring on the revolution, worse thing that can happen is standards being raised and ET records being broken
Posted by cobraman1994 (Member # 467) on
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lol, poop. LMAO
Posted by Yellow94GT (Member # 431) on
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quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
93PONY- I don't know Drew's combo and his combo is such an odd ball performer , won't even try to guess what his dyno graph looks like
As for H/I/C+boost "summit catalog" combo's making 450+ rwhp with a stock bottem end, I think its pretty good. In theory you can take any 5.O and a summit catalog and over a weekend turn it into an Exotic car killer that still passes smog. What more could you want? I'm a huge fan of simple combo's that run hard. For example Bob Cosby's mid 12 second stock motored LX is my hero, but I poop on his ported canfield headed, twin turbo, holley intake, built AOD, Ed C. Cam, 10.9 second LX.
As for the 5.O + power adder class, just quickly thinking of a few that should be on the list... Jeff Peterson's victor Jr heads + off the shelf comp cam + S trim LX running 11.2's and Paul Booth's 11.3 second TFS heads + nitrous + comp cam notch.
Either way, I'm a spectator.... let me pull up my lawn chair and see what works and what doesn't work for people... I already have a pretty good idea of what has worked pretty damn good over the past 5 years here. Bring on the revolution, worse thing that can happen is standards being raised and ET records being broken
That 11.2 that Jeff Peter's ran does not do justice to the power of that setup. He never got a full run out of that car due to lack of gear at the top of the track. That car was capable of 130 MPH traps and 10's easily. this is show by his 101 MPH 1/8 mile MPH.
Must be the heads
Posted by Yellow94GT (Member # 431) on
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quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Bring on the revolution, worse thing that can happen is standards being raised and ET records being broken
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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Naw, the secret to his mojo was his custom cam from some shmuck 3000 miles away degreed in to .00001 degree accuracy...... no wait, I'm mistake'n, actually his "secret" was a well matched off the shelf cam mixed with some good flowing out the box heads..... at least we now know what's truely important when putting up the numbers
[ December 03, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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I don't see how 450RWHP is impressive for a 302 W/HCI & boost! That's a mear 250HP above stock with high-flowing heads, cam, intake & boost.... Pull off the blower & what's the combo good for...~300RWHP...not real impressive.
What's impressive is these N/A boys putting those high #'s down... without passing smog of course.
Jeff used the XE274 in his car. An excellent Blower cam! Those XE lobes are exactly what Ed C., Brian E., & a bunch of other use for their custom grinds. The XE series cams have awesome lobes! But they're really designed for carb setups w/the standard split duration, so the valve events are hit & miss for most of the HCI combos floating around. Jeff ran 104 on motor w/that setup (w/the auto). The blower was doing all the work. 15psi from a blower should nearly double the power of the motor. 10psi from a turbo will do it!
I agree that Bob's Coupe was bad-ass, but have you ever seen this car run???
Seriously though most of the problems with the HCI cars in norcal are due to poor cam choices/valve-events. It's hit & miss. The ones that hit it run hard w/off-the-shelf parts. The ones that miss don't. A custom grind hits nearly every time. Hell, no one's perfect.
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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I can only think of maybe 2-3 locals that have made 450+ rwhp with 12ish psi and box stock heads, intake and off the shelf generic cams on a stock bottem end. On the flip side, Team Solo, Jon and Aaron are the only people I know of in Northern California that have EVER made over 300 rwhp out of a stock bottem ended 302. I no longer set my standards on what is the latest fad on corral.net so yeah, 450+ rwhp box stock parts + boost on a stock bottem end and 300+ rwhp from a stock bottem end 302 are impressive to me. As for 15 psi of blower boost being the same as 10 psi of turbo boost... sounds like the Incon mailing list is alive and well....a long time ago I conluded that boost is boost, turbo, centrifical, roots, ect, I don't care, just give me the cheap, efficient, practicial one so I can have the most fun
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
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st5150,
I would say the 302's cam is not *wild* but decently aggresive(whatever that means). When I ordered the cam I just told Ed that I wanted the cam to make the most power with the parts he already had at full weight with all accessories and not to worry about that smog thing
My experiece with blower cars is that it doesn't really matter what your combo is. If you strap on a blower and know how to tune your gonna haul some ass.
93PONY,
I told him over and over to make sure to get a 9-way FMS chain and to degree it in, but when I stopped by his house today the cam was already in. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
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st5150,
Boost is boost, however when you lose 50+hp from spinning the blower, the turbo boost seems much more efficient.
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
As for 15 psi of blower boost being the same as 10 psi of turbo boost... sounds like the Incon mailing list is alive and well....a long time ago I conluded that boost is boost, turbo, centrifical, roots, ect, I don't care, just give me the cheap, efficient, practicial one so I can have the most fun
Ignorance at it's finest. It's all about the efficiency of the blower/turbo. Roots have ~55-60% efficiency rates at BEST. The wipple gets up there in the mid 60's. Centrifugals are in the 75% range.
Why do you think Turbos are baned in most racing classes?
How much power do you think my GT40 iron headed, cobra intake, stock camed 331 is making? Not much! 9psi from these hair-dryers are easily giving me 200HP/TQ.
How much do you think it'd make with an S trim pushing 9psi? 350-370RWHP & TQ most likely.
There's actually a guy on turbomustangs that just made the same power w/15psi on the blower as 9-10 on the turbo....everything else was the same. I'll try to find the link.
IMO 300RWHP from a HCI combo 302 is not very impressive. 325+ yes.
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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Jeff S- A Novi 2000 pullied up can take 50 hp to spin, but look at the big restriction the turbo puts on the exhaust....that will cost you 50 HP as well. On the internet its turbo this, turbo that, AFR this, AFR that, custom cam this, custom cam that but on Saturday night its almost always the trick flow heads + vortech cars that you have to watch out for. This was the case 10 years ago. This is still the case today. I don't see it changing anytime soon either. I've never owned any of the products I'm talking about here and have never even been in the market to buy any of them so you can't get more unbias than my opinion I just want to see 5.O's on top.
93PONY- How am I being ignorent? My personal preference is centrifical just because I can bolt it between lunch and dinner, it don't really obstruct much and its proven to be cheap and reliable. Its just my personal taste though, everyone has different preferences and neither one is right or wrong as long as they get the job done to the owners satisfaction. If you still think I'm ignorent, prove me wrong. Let ink and paper do the talking. You've claimed 500 RWHP at 6100 RPM at 9-10 psi by only adding a custom cam, we'll have to wait for the inkjet printer to settle it.
As for the turbo vs centrifical boost, I'm just telling you what I've seen with my own eyes and you're telling me what you've read on a products internet mailing list. I've been on that mailing list since it started, I've read all the B.S. those morons post there and get use to get a good laugh out of it. I've been in the stage you're at now and came full circle to see the the whole forest instead of individual trees. So if you still think 10 turbo psi = 15 blower psi...You're running 10 psi of turbo boost. Go race some 15 psi T-trim or Novi 2000 cars and tell me 10 psi turbo = 15 psi centrifical.
When taking about power adders in race classes... I agree, turbo's are the way to go for 30+ psi of boost. You run into a lot of mechanical problems pullying and gearing up a centrifical blower to the crazy boost levels they run in the NMRA.... but if I remember right, the Pro 5.O record in the NMRA is a nitroused car ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
As for comparing your combo with the same thing, but an S trim... are you forgetting your intercoolers? tisk tisk tisk I want a Vortech aftercooler on my virtual combo to make things fair
ps- Dave Inall is also a useless internet tele-marketer like Ed Curtis and I don't think that opinion will change after I'm over the flu next week either :razz:
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
:
93PONY,
The reason your Incon setup is making more HP than the same setup with an S-trim is not because the efficiency rating of your turbos but because they are intercooled and the take only a few HP to operate as opposed to the ~40 the stock pullied S-Trim would.
st5150,
Umm... what restriction does a turbo put on the exhaust? It may use a few HP, but nowhere near the amount that a centrifugal would.
I do agree that TFS heads are the way to go for a street/strip blower car but you must admit that almost all of the "impressive" NA cars have been using AFR heads recently.
PS. Out of curiosity what is the reason you dislike Ed Curtis so much?
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Yes, igonorant if you think 15psi from a turbo = 15psi from a centrifugal.
Apmospheric pressure is ~14.7psi. Theoretically ~15psi forced into a given motor (say 300rwhp) will double the power. BUT, you must take compressor efficiency into account. A compressor in it's 75% efficiency range at 15psi will make 525RWHP on this motor....BUT, you must then subtract the power needed to run the blower. Anywere from 30-50hp to spin the gear box. This is fairly accurate to the real-world. True, a turbo doesn't use that kind of HP spinning any gears, but it is NOT free. Turbos take power to make power, just like the centrifugals, but they don't require nearly as much. Hard to say just how much they use, but it's definately NOT 50hp!
A turbo motor produces ~1.5-2 times the pressure in the exhaust manifold as in the intake. This robs power, yet at the same time adds power.....odd you say? Not really. N/A & SC motor's power stroke is from 0-90 crank degrees. The turbo motor's powerstroke is extended due to the pressure in the exhaust. It fights to push out the exhaust gasses. Simple physics. How much does it increase the powerstroke is hard to say. Most believe it's extended ~45 degrees. So, that's an extra 45 degrees of stroke/power.
There's another advantage to the ol' turbo. Full boost is achived BEFORE peak torque. On a matched setup full boost is achived before 3K rpm. On a SC....what 6K? If the motors are both making peak HP at 6000rpm, then both will make roughly the same peak HP. BUT, the power under the curve will be drastically higher w/the turbo motor. 100FTlbs of torque over the SC motor is NOT un-comon. Now lets just say these motors peak @ 5500rpm....well, the SC isn't even making full boost yet & is at a disadvantage....
You rode in my car..... Have you EVER felt a stock heads, cam, intake car w/9psi running through cats pull like that? 119MPH w/a slipping clutch @ 3550lbs going down the track.....It takes TW heads, E cam & off-road exhaust to match that on a Vortech car.
We will see what the motor does w/just a cam change..... & it should peak before 6K rpm...
Posted by FordPny (Member # 510) on
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quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
Jeff S- A Novi 2000 pullied up can take 50 hp to spin, but look at the big restriction the turbo puts on the exhaust....that will cost you 50 HP as well. On the internet its turbo this,
I know a little bit about turbos but nothing close to what 93pony or you know but I can honestly say running a 3-5 inch downpipe and a good exhuast system (read straight thru) there is no way you loose 50 hp from ristriction. I mean sure you get back pressure but there is absoultly no way I can imagine loosing 50hp especially on a twin turbo.
and jeff you forgot to mention the number 1 bearing on supercharged cars
one last thing if turbos are not as good as blowers how come some of the fastest cars out there came with turbos (GN Supras Svo's)
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
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quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
As for the Maroon LX, are you sure its ported performer heads? I could have swore he posted here once it was Victor Jr's. The most I've ever heard of Performer heads flowing is about 270 cfm
I just confirmed with him and they are/were Edelbrock RPM heads. I guess the solid roller and ~2800 pound race weight helped a bit
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on
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This thread rules. Can't wait to see some of the faster AFR combos when they hit the track. See sig!
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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I'll probably reply more later tonight, but I have to go study for an exam....
I just wanted to pull out a local "case study". Byron of racesystems.com's old '93 Cobra...
exhaust, a stinky powerdyne at 13 psi and a stock motor made 406 rwhp. 93PONY- you made 3 PSI less through your twin turbos, but have 30 more cubic inches, a better cam, lightly cleaned up heads an air to air intercooler, yet only made 15-20 rwhp more than Byron's '93 Cobra. Do all the conceptual theory you want on this, but I'm telling you contrary to what that unemployed cyber-salesmen Dave Inall says, boost is boost, I don't care if it says Vortech or Garret on the box. I can go on and on and on with local examples if you want. Here is another one:
http://www.cafords.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000257
8 psi of intercooled vortech boost through edelbrock 6037's, cobra intake and a Crane 2031 cam on a stock bottem end making 442 rwhp.
His heads flow 25 cfm better than yours, but he's running 2 psi less boost, has 30 less cubic inches than you, an "eh" cam yet is making 15-20 rwhp more than your combo.
10 psi of turbo boost is equal to 15 psi of vortech boost eh????
Should I keep going with examples like this?
94 GT with stock bottem end, shit kicking powerdyne at 11 psi, E cam, GT40 intake, edelbrock 6037's on a stock 302 bottem end..... 430 rwhp.... again, you have 30 more cubic inches on him, 25 less cfm flowing heads, 1 psi less boost, but he has no intercooler, a bit less of a cam and are making the exact same power as him.... am I missing something here? 10 psi turbo boost equals 15 psi supercharger boost???? Lets put this debate to rest right here, its impossible for you to win such a false claim. Believe what you want, but don't confuse other rookie 5.O guys. Magazines and internet sites already confuse them enough with BS tech.
As for not liking Ed Curtis... he doesn't post any tech advice... he only gives bullshit conceptual theory and the only numbers he ever posts is his phone number and how many dollars for his services. You'll never see him give true tech advice, only brag about himself and try to sell AFR heads and custom cams online. He isn't out to help the hobby, but only out to help is own pockets. I want to puke every time I read his info-mercials because of the blaytant way he tries to brainwash 5.O guys. Dave Inall is the same way which would explain why he's in the unemployment line right now
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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quote:
Originally posted by shade-tree:
This thread rules. Can't wait to see some of the faster AFR combos when they hit the track. See sig!
Yes, this thread does rule
shade-tree, I want yours and other people's input on this like John91Coupe, 67stang, ect.
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on
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I'm focusing cracking into 14 second land on my "worst cam ever" car (a '94 cobra cam). I think a 100 shot this Saturday will get me there on slicks! Maybe they'll let me stage with my back tires for the secret 9 foot head start!
which would you rather race for ET? a 1320 or a 1311? lol
Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on
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st5150,
The problem with the argument and examples you are giving is that you are using boost numbers. 8psi on one car is "X" amount of airflow(CFM, or whatever you want to use), but 8psi on a different car is not neccessarily equal to "X".
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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Jeff, all the combo's I listed have the same size exhaust, more or less similar cams and similar (if not exact) flowing heads and intakes. They all more or less provide the same restriction to the blower/turbo so comparing boost numbers instead of cfm is valid in my opinion. Even if we were to compare cfm, are you saying a powerdyne moves more air than the big Incon twin turbo kit?
I'd also like to add that a local (or former local I should say) Sean Lewis upgraded the powerdyne in his mid 400 rwhp notchback to an S trim with nothing else and gained 20 rwhp across the board at the same boost level, so keep that in mind when looking at the local examples above
Posted by 91PONY (Member # 206) on
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I'll post more later...
You forget I run complete smog setup w/cats. Are you saying all those combos listed are running the same?
BTW, my car made 457RWHP & 525RWTQ on a completely stock longblock w/ off-road exhaust & 9psi.
I run 9psi now as well.
The T-bird cam (stock Cobra) makes peak power 500rpm above the stock GT cam BTW.
An E cam is significantly larger then the stock Gt cam. 20 degrees more overlap!!! & 10 degrees more duration on both intake & exhaust.
Posted by cobraman1994 (Member # 467) on
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lol
you sound like shaun
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on
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quote:
Originally posted by 91PONY:
The T-bird cam (stock Cobra) makes peak power 500rpm above the stock GT cam BTW.
what context is this? CNC ported AFR's on a DSS 306 longblock?
Factory stock built 310 cube shortblock with 13:1 GT-40s?
did you put a cobra cam into a stock HO block and witness the HP peak rise 500 rpm?
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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I too will post more later (exam in 1 hour, 1 question, 25 minutes, 10% of my grade )
Good post shade-tree..... way to see the whole forest and not just one tree.
forest = whole combo
tree = one item such as a cam or what not
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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I guess I should've clarified....
The Cobra cam peaked 500rpm higher on the stock 302 as opose to the GT cam in the 331. Same heads/intake/boost, etc. Take into account the added displacement & it'd be more like 300rpm higher then the stock GT cam.
Sawson, what you fail to see is whole power curve of this blower vs turbo debate.
HP = torque * (rpm/5252)
The torque curve is everything! Full boost at peak torque.... Get the picture.
Pull my turbos & slap on a Vorturd....intercooled. Hell, use the Incon intercooler I don't care. (BTW, on a dyno, an intercooler is NOT very efficient) At peak TQ (3700rpm) boost would be minimal. At Peak HP (4800rpm) boost would be 6-7psi MAX for a 9lb setup. 7psi at peak HP will not produce more then 400RWHP even intercooled on my setup. Torque would be well under 400RW as well.
So, I'd lose at least 30RWHP & over 100RWTQ!
I don't really know, nor care what Dave Inall says, writes, whatever. Now Corky Bell....that's another story.
How can you rip on Ed when you've never even talked with the guy? Never had any experience with him... All you see is the Corral BS. I've gotten lots of good tech from the guy. Dispite what you may think, he DOES know his shit.
[ December 04, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Read:
http://www.fast-eddys.com/openbb/read.php?TID=3294
Proof of the power difference from supercharger to turbo.
Posted by 90GT (Member # 3) on
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Since Jeff's car was mentioned I figured I would chime in. He was seeing about 10 psi the day it ran 11.2's. 124-104 = 20mph. Vorturd, ouch that one hurt, lol.
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Sorry about that Scott. Just trying to make a point. 20mph from 10psi is awesome!
Posted by Yellow94GT (Member # 431) on
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Uh oh! Scott spoke!
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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I don't know where to begin so I think I'm going to end it.
I was trying to give my unbias experience based on _several_ local examples of 5.O's running around our streets and tracks to back up my claims. Local is important because you can actually see and hear the car and find out dirty secrets that never make it online such as a piss poor idle, its actually a stroker, chews up belts, stalls at every stop light, pops head gaskets monthly, actually ran more boost/octane that he's claiming, ect. You know all the stuff people 'accidently' forget to type when bragging online, but all the locals know the real picture.
I didn't mean to pick on your turbo car, but its the only 'documented' street turbo 5.O running around here these days that I know of.
If you think turbo boost is vastly superior to centrfical boost and the camshaft is the end all end part of a combo, so be it. I tried to site many local examples of cars that go directly against your ideology to help you see the big picture and have failed.
Makes no difference to me. Bash trick flows and centrificals all you want if you can back it up. I don't own anything from trick flow or "vorturd". In my garage sits a stock 5.O with a mystry miss/hesitation at upper RPMS Don't shoot me, I'm just the messanger of local 5.O combos ![[dance]](graemlins/dance.gif)
[ December 04, 2002, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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I guess we're just 2 stuburn 5.0 fanatics....
Good thread/discusion Sawson. See you next time I dyno the beast.
[ December 04, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on
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Cool, I think I figured out my digital camera settings better so the pictures this time will do your paint justice. Hopefully your dyno tune will be in January because for the rest of this month I'll either be swamped with finals or out of town.
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on
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Probably February.... I think the shops are booked solid till then. + the cam probably won't be here till late January.
Good luck on the finals.
[ December 04, 2002, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: 93PONY ]
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