This is topic d.s.s 396 last minute suggestions in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 
Anything I need to know before I make the call to D.S.S . I am ordering their 396ci AFR 185 long block for a street/strip 65 mustang.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
why not a 408 or 427 (sorry!)
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
What kind of power are you trying to make? If it were my motor i'd use the AFR 205's with HR conversion.
 

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Posted by cobraman1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
up the heads to a 205 and youll be very happy. well, either way, youll be happy
 

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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 
shade-tree you had to go there j/k Im tring to make this thing last as long as possible.

The 205 long block is 400.00 more,
is there many hiddin costs like hedders or anything like that?
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
DOUBLE PSOST!

[ December 02, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
1 3/4" off the shelf headers would be like a cork on that motor. (Unless you keep the AFR 185's then it probably would be about right) I think they cost like $500 or so for the headers+H-pipe combo.

btw, there's something magical about the 427 number, IMHO
396 uses an overbore and 302 rods right? It's the budget stroker 351 FOR SURE. Leaps and bounds over a 351. Do you really need more than 40-50k miles from it?
 

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Posted by theguywhoknows (Member # 2148) on :
 
check out the 351W's, 408's and 427's at www.BadAssCars.com before you do anything else...
 

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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 

quote:

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check out the 351W's, 408's and 427's at www.BadAssCars.com before you do anything else...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
396 with stock 302 rods, talk about ghetto racing.

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also why do you say 1 3/4" primaries are a cork? first it's almost impossible to fit a windsor in a 65 mustang (i hate the lack of room in my engine bay and it's a bigger 67), second i don't think you can fit 1 7/8" primarys on a stock flange because the bolts are too close so you need an adapter plate that offsets the screws. that also pushes the headers out another 1/4-1/2

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like you said, talk about ghetto racing. You build it right, or you improvise and ghetto rig it.
Maybe you want to find out how the outlaw cars setup their stuff?, no flames back, it's not like my car makes any power (it doesn't)
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Isnt DSS just stock stuff with a girdle and some cheap pistons?

All that girdle is good for is keeping all the pieces attached when you blow up the bottom end.

Like someone said before. You get what you pay for!

Eric
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
shade-tree, i have never seen afr 205s on an outlaw car in my life. maybe if someone said "are 1 3/4 primaries okay with my fully ported brodex neal heads?" then i'd have to say it's time to set up to a bigger set of headers.

theguywhoknows, i'm guessing you're, Arron. The windsor "fitting" is all a matter of oppinion. I have a 67 with a 408 and novi2000, it "fits" in the engine compartment and under the hood but i had to cut a hole in the shock tower to fit my air cleaner (now that's REAL ghetto racing). so in my oppinion it DOESN'T fit. yes a 351w fits between 65/66 shock towers but i know the shock towers are closer than mine and i wouldn't want to have any less room than i already have. It's such a tight fit you can't even use stock 65 motor mounts. so eventhough it fits without cutting anything, in my oppinion, there isnt enough room left over for it to count as "fitting"

oh and yeah i've seen missy's car at sac and sears a few times. mark at bayshore engine rebuilders is in love with her... but he's never talked to her. if she's single tell her to give him a call.

lastly, about this quote:

quote:

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so if you think you're fast, ask her for a heads-up race and see who wins. Our money is on Missy! You go girl!

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how much money are you willing to put on her? i have a 408 that i built in my garage that i'm willing to bet has more power than hers. oh and only a 2500 stall, it's a street car.
 

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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 
theguywhoknows(Arron?????????)
I have asked around and have been told that d.s.s was one of the best and used nothing but the best parts . What could you build me for $6000.00 . I have seen missy (shes hot)and her car is sweet what does she have in it.
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
You know Josh, what are you trying to do? What do you want for 6k? For 6k you can get a decent short block and then get to the heads.

All of the people that I have delt with and know about mail order engine companies, is that if its seems to be too good to be true than it most likely is.

Just because they have a flashy add in every Mustang Magazine does not make them the best.

I think I would buy a FMS 396 before I would by from DSS.

Just my .02

Eric
 

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Posted by theguywhoknows (Member # 2148) on :
 
Hey onelowsplitbumper, your blown 408 sounds pretty cool, but remember, we are talkin about a naturally aspirated 408 here, not a blown 408, and Missy's is a nice engine, but certainly not even close to my all-out nasty race 408's and it is light years away from any of the supercharged engines I build. She's just a pump gasser and a fairly mild one at that compared to other engines I build. But even with that, she runs easy 10's with the front wheels up.

If you want a heads-up race between two blown cars, my own 65 Fastback has twin NOVI 1200's and twin 250 HP shots of nitrous if you want to play, but I'd have to race you in an all out "Cannon Ball Run" style race because my car isn't set-up for drag racing and launching off the line. It's my exehibition car that I take to shows with CNC'd Victor heads, an R-302 block, 4340 everything, roller everything and the best of the best everywhere else. You can say it runs quite well and makes well into the 4 digit HP area. I'm sure you'll see the car in some of the major shows in the bay area and beyond.

Josh, I can't really say anything bad about DSS. They are a good company and I know Eric over there (a good guy). They do build some nice engines and use some good parts in "most" of their engines. As with any company that advertises though (we don't do any advertising), they all have their "bargain" priced engines for the price shopper's out there. With DSS (and any other engine builder for that matter) you have to know what "series" engine to get. Don't just go by the size, HP rating and price of the engine.

Just because an engine is a 332, 347, 396, 408 or 427 stroker, doesn't mean its built as good as it can be, hence the stock 302 rods in one of the other 396 engines out there, where ours uses a VERY long 6.250" Chevy ( I know, bite my tongue) rods that are 4340 forged H-beam style. The saying is true, you get what you pay for and the real deal stuff ain't cheap. Hell, I build $45,000 engines for sand dragsters over seas, $30,000 boat engines and so on. So you can see that an engine price for the real stuff can jump WAY up, REAL fast.

Missy's car has a simple, decent 408 that has 11:1 compression, out of the box (untouched) Victor Jr. heads. One of my custom solid roller cams (.624" / .636" lift) which is small compared to the real race cams we use, JE pistons, a 4340 crank, one of our billet main supports, a ported Victor Jr. intake and a customized Holley 750 carb and that's really about it without getting into too much detail. It's nothing spectacular and it runs on 92 octane fuel and peels-off easy 10 second times with the front wheels off the ground with nothing more than 8" M/T cheater slicks, a 3.89 9" rear-end on stock leaf springs with slapper bars and not much else. That equates out to some pretty good power. Of course there is more to it than just that, but those are my secrets, and I could tell you some of them, but then I'd have to kill you afterwards... ha-ha-ha!!

One of our "real" race 408's (still naturally aspirated and single carbbed) would propell her car well into the 9's, although with her existing suspension, that would be pretty hard on the car and fairly dangerous to boot and I'm sure her car wouldn't pass tech for that kind of speed with what she has right now.

This winter, I am going to massage the heads a little, change-out the cam to a slightly more aggressive profile and maybe change the valve angles a bit and that's about it. That should drop her down about 2, or maybe even 3 more tenths and maybe gain about 5 MPH. We'll see.

I'm one of those guy's that say's nothing is final until the fat lady sings, and guess what my dyno's name is.... I call it "the fat lady"! Talk is cheap, but real numbers and time slips tell the truth. Good luck with your engine adventure and if I can be of any help (to ANY of you out there for that matter), please feel free to ask, OK? Have a good one everyone and remember, it's all about fun. :-)
www.BadAssCars.com

[ December 05, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: theguywhoknows ]
 

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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 
theguywhoknows
I have $6,000 to spend what could you build for me? I'll tell you what how about 6k and my 65 fastback for your 65 fastback.
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 

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Hey onelowsplitbumper, your blown 408 sounds pretty cool, but remember, we are talkin about a naturally aspirated 408 here, not a blown 408, and Missy's is a nice engine, but certainly not even close to my all-out nasty race 408's and it is light years away from any of the supercharged engines I build. She's just a pump gasser and a fairly mild one at that compared to other engines I build. But even with that, she runs easy 10's with the front wheels up.

If you want a heads-up race between two blown cars, my own 65 Fastback has twin NOVI 1200's and twin 250 HP shots of nitrous if you want to play, but I'd have to race you in an all out "Cannon Ball Run" style race because my car isn't set-up for drag racing and launching off the line. It's my exehibition car that I take to shows with CNC'd Victor heads, an R-302 block, 4340 everything, roller everything and the best of the best everywhere else. You can say it runs quite well and makes well into the 4 digit HP area. I'm sure you'll see the car in some of the major shows in the bay area and beyond.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
leaf springs and caltracks, oh and i'd even we willing to bring out my drag radials instead of slicks (dont really need slicks with the lack of stall and trans brake).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:

So i figured my 100% street car vs her semi street car would be a fun race.
that's cool though, if you don't want to stand by the statement i don't mind....i had an idea to put two novi2000 on a tunnel ram with two eblos on top but then about 5 mins later i realized how much hp i'd be losing by spinning both blowers off the crank. have you ever thought of ditching those two and going with a twin turbo set up? you'd probably make 100 more hp just from getting rid of the drive belt.

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Look who needs a grammar lesson now! I've never seen so many sentences begin with a lower case letter in my life. Also, "i" is supposed to be capitalized.

[ December 06, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Jeff S ]
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Is this the same Silver Mustang we're talking about?

http://www.cafords.com/images/drag/01_12_02/page_05.htm

The two pictures towards the top right hand corner.
 

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Posted by theguywhoknows (Member # 2148) on :
 
Mr Paint Job, as far as running the cars, sure, next time Sears Point is open and I'm out there, I'll run ya in my own car and I don't use slicks either :-) In fact, I'll stay off the bottle for ya too, OK?

If Missy wants to race you, that is up to her, being that it is her car and I have noting to do with it. I said I'll put my money on her car on my web site because car for car (in the same catagory, comparing apples to apples), I'd indeed put my money on her car. I certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to put money on a blown, computer controlled car against a naturally aspirated VINTAGE car. Hell, if you want to play that game and think you're hot enough to run against some real nasty cars, I can always get out my old A Alcohol nostalgia dragster and run you if you want. That isn't much different than putting your blown / computer controlled car against a naturally aspirated car like Missy's. Of course your car will make more power! That is a no brainer! So you might be pretty fast for a what you have, but you aren't a low 6 second car like my other car I co-own either...

And for turbo's, it is a farce that they make more power with less paracitic power loss than belt driven systems. Do the words, "exhaust restriction" mean anything? Top fueler's are THE most powerful V-8 engines on the planet. I have tinkered with a few in my day and I have numerous buddies that own top fuel boats, funny cars and dragsters, (in fact I was on several top fuel pit crews when I was younger, back in the 80's) and these boy's tip the dyno's at over 7,000HP on any given day and do they use turbo's? No way! Why? Because belt driven forced induction simply makes more power, faster.

Turbo's were tried back in the early 80's on two top fueler's that I can remember, and they choked! They just couldn't do what the belt drive blowers could do (you are talking about 200 PSI of boost here, OK? Not 40 or 50 like turbo's can handle) and it was as simple as that, hence why you don't see any blown fuel turbo'd dragsters out there. There's a reason for that and with unlimited budgets, top designer's and engine builder's and anything they could possibly want in this world at their finger tips, if turbo's worked better than belt drive systems, they'd be using them. Turbo's have their place in endurance situations such as F-1, Indy, Trans-Am and so on, (whicH I also dabble in from time to time) and blowers have their place as well, but saying that removing one of my belt drive superchargers would free-up more power is so not true.

Your car sounds great and please don't think I'm doggin' you or anything like that, 'cause I'm not. I just want to compare apples to apples and if you want a REAL race, it has to between the same types of cars, otherwise you might as well meet me out there when we have our other alcohol car running and believe me, we will be at half track before your rear tires are even past the christmas tree. Hey, it's all about fun man and everybody has their own thing. You have yours, Missy has her's and I have mine. Missy is only one of about 8 different other cars we have built similar to her's, (out of hundreds of cars over the years) but her's is the only local one that actually goes out and races for fun on Wednesday nights. The other cars, some a LOT faster than hers, are just show cars that wil never see the track or they just don;t play the Wednesday night deal because of the noise restrictions they have out there among other reasons.

One of my employees' uncle in Napa has a street driven 41 Willy's "OutLaw" with a blown alcohol all aluminum 575 cubic inch BOSS engine (based on a BOSS 429) It has a 14-71, fuel injected system, custom made BOSS 429 heads and so on and it easily makes 2,500+HP and still cruises at Hot August Nights. Not for very long though because of the icing-up on the injectors and the alcohol consumption, but never the less, he cruises it because it IS a street car, but you wouldn't want to put your car against a car like that because again, it is like comparing apples to bananas and there is just an unfair advantage.
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Mr. "guywhoknows",

Have you been to a recent heads up event? If turbo's dont work than why are most people that can afford the costly switch doing it? Its the most realiable power adder that you can have!

The exahust restriction is minimal compared to the 100+hp power that can be lost on a d3r or f3 centrifical type blower. Besides with a turbo you never have to worry about those damn belts! Changing them every round can get exspensive!

Can you even run a turbo in a fueler? I don't even know if that is legal anyway. I know you cant run EFI and you need that to run any sucessful turbo setup! And Nitro would royaly screw up an EFI fuel system.

Maybe with more technology and time somebody will be able to to run a turbo type car in the NHRA. But why fix what is not broken?

And I think turbo technology has improved in 20 years. In fact, I know it has!

Eric
 

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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 
st5150
yep thats it.

theguywhoknows
You can always build me a blown 408 and I could compare apples to apples w/ Mr Paint Job .
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
oh man where do I start, first Jeff, that made me laugh. I’ll go back to an school and learn an language. we=be of course.

Arron, first comparable cars to me means "street car vs street car" not "race car vs race car" so you're right, her car and my car are not comparable, mine is a street car... cd player and all. What with the capitalized "VINTAGE" thing? just because her car is one year old than mine makes hers vintage? I still have window cranks just like her.
Second, I have no cage and I have no desire to spend $20 for one run at a drag strip. I will be more than willing to race any car you own on the street. But if you want to compare apples to apples then you better be on 91 octane, getting more than 15 mpg, and idling at a steady 700 rpm.
Third, there isn't a dyno on the planet that can handle 7000 hp so this quote "and these boy's tip the dyno's at over 7,000HP on any given day" is a complete lie. also, why are screw type blowers outlawed in top fuel??? because they're too efficient and would out class a 1471 roots.
Third, onto the turbo thing... is your twin novi + n2o car a top fueler? is it seeing 200 psi? NO and NO so like I said "have you ever thought of ditching those two and going with a twin turbo set up?"
turbos in indy? I thought those were just motor but I dunno, I dont like seeing cars drive in circles so I dont really pay attention to them.
Does he cruise that Willy's TOOOO hot august nights? I drove mine from san mateo to reno, came in second in the burnout contest (second to my good friend kevin) then won the bracket racing the same day, made the cruise sunday, got my engine on FOX's hour coverage of Hot August Nights (took my hood off for the cruise), and then drove back home. (see I can brag too)
I don't care about your radical race cars that you build, i'm only into street cars like i've said before.
Lastly, just because it's driven on and off the trailer on a city street doesn't make it a street car.

Eric, if you got a turbo to work well in top fuel they'd just end up banning it to keep everyone running a roots.

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theguywhoknows
You can always build me a blown 408 and I could compare apples to apples w/ Mr Paint Job .

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if you want to compare apples to apples then my friend you have to build that 408 in your own garage, you have to be 22 and you have to convert your carbed 65 mustang over to efi. i have a feeling you might have a long way to go.

Arron, i'm sure you build great engines and i know you have WAY more knowledge than me (i'm only 22), i just find arguing fun.
 

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Posted by theguywhoknows (Member # 2148) on :
 
Mr. Paint Job, no offenses taken dude, you are right. I have a lot more knowledge than you. This is what I do for a living, among other things that I own as well... and you seem to know quite a bit too, BUT turbo's WERE most certainly tried in top fuel many years ago and they flat-out didn't keep up with the Roots type huffer's. If you are only 22, then you were probably still in diapers then and I was 19, with an 11 second (11.02 to be exact) TRUE stereet car that I drove to school everyday and raced on the weekends at Fremont at 1970's and 1980's technology. It was ALL engine, no supercharger, no computer, no EFI and street tires and on pump gas,

At the same time, I was also the fuel / magneto guy on a top fuel boat crew (the world's fastes blown fuel flat bottom at the time) that my best friend owned, so I was not only messing with my 11 second car (and other's that I built in my one car garage), I was on a world record holding top fuel team as well as a several of other's after that.

You have a long way to go before you have the knowledge and experience as I, BUT you are also well on your way, so don't take that as bragging or putting you down.

I've been around the block a few times and tend to take things to the next step as far as radical engines go. Smooth idles, computers and EFI does NOTHING for me. I like nasty idles, the smell of an over rich exhaust, (especially when it's on alcohol or nitro) carburetors and nostalgia, and that is the very reason I said that Missy's car is a VINTAGE car compared to yours. I mean, you basically have nothing more than a basic 408 and everything from a new Mustang swapped over to it. If I bought a new Cobra R engine and put it in a 65 Mustang, I certainly couldn't call it "vintage" anymore, nor would ANY vintage or nostalgia event even let me in the gate. That takes carbs, and "era" components, natural aspiration and usually even a given amount of cubic inches, depending on the sanction.

Also, on the turbo'd outlaw race cars. Those aren't Pro Mod cars guy's! Hello?? And they aren't NEAR as fast as Pro Mod door slammer's either! Yes, turbo's are OK for some applications but they are NOT the absolute best by any means and again, that is why you don't see any on pro mods, top fueler's, top alcoholer's and so on. Do you think none of us know whet we're doing and that you "kids" that have day job's doing other things know more than guy's like us? Come-on, get real and quit reading biased magazine articles. And whoever said dyno's don't go to 7,000HP needs to wake-up! Maybe YOU don't know about any dyno's capable of measuring that kind of power but let me tell you something, not only are there dyno's that test top fueler's, there are dyno's in this world that can read power levels WAY beyond that by ten or twenty times or more. They're used for testing giant ship engines, enormous diesel engines and so on with displacements that aren't measurd in cubic inches or liters... more like in cubic FEET! They work on the same princibles as any "friction" brake dyno, be it water, or mechanical brakes. They DO exist.
 

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Posted by JOSH (Member # 979) on :
 
So you two have anything to say about the topic? If not open a new thred , you can call it "my dick is longer then yours" .
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
You know Mr. "guywhoknows" there is a pro mod car with twin turbos on it. Reiger has one. I even saw it test in Vegas. And, no I didn't read it in a magazine I saw it when I was racing!

There is something to be said about nostalgia stuff but, when you actually take the time to learn new technology (not stuff that was made before YOU were born) you will find it vastly superior to anything that has a Carb. on it! Besides, all the "sportsman" braket racing crowd probably cannot afford this kind of technology anyway, nor do they need it for what they do! Thats probably why you don't like it! You should try it, it works wonders! And I think my car has a pretty good idle crackle!

And by the way, I dont think I am a kid anymore! Pushing 30
Eric
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
By the way, what boat crew were you on? If you were involed with boat stuff then you should know the Hutchisons. They were top dogs around then right?
Eric
 

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Posted by theguywhoknows (Member # 2148) on :
 
Yellow67... you are taking this the wrong way dude and getting an attitude over it. This isn't about my dick is longer than someone else's or what technology is better, and if you have "a" friend running Pro Mod with turbo's that is great, but the rest of them use roots blowers and NO, nada, zip top fueler's are running turbos, not even in unlimited classes such as all-out heads-up nostalgia and just so you know... turbos are NOT "new" technology compared to superchargers, so it has nothing to do with that.

As for the boat and your friend... I was best friends with Steve Black, who's dad owned "Explosion" # 465, when NDBA was around. Tom Black, the owner who was killed in a blown fuel hydro crash back in 94, also owned Percision Propellers, the company that made about 90% of all race and performance props for the serious boats. Dago, who owned "Down n Out" and Marine Engineering (a very famous drag boat builder, Al Bush who owneed "Crazy Horse" and many other's were running when we were. Now days, there is no such thing as "blown fuel flat bottoms" because of the danger they pose and NDBA has been replaced with NHBA.

As for me not liking late model technology... I never said that what so ever. I am just not "into" it. I like nostalgia, much the same way you might like Nascar or bracket racing... and I don't. You might like red heads and I like blondes... computers and EFI is just not my bag, I never said it wasn't any good or didn't work, in fact, I know I said the opposite and that is one of the reasons why I said that Mr. Paint Job's car would be miscomparing cars between his 408 and Missy's 408, besides the blower and why I didn't consider his car "vintage".

This is supposed to all be about fun guy's. Lose the attitudes and the shit talk.
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
I am not getting an attitude. I have no reason to get an attitude. I am nothing when it comes to racing, just expressing my opinions and killing time at work!

As for Pro mod, Reiger is not my friend. Never met the guy! And there are a bunch of n20 pro mod cars also. Just one turbo though! For now! I just thin majority of people that race cars fear new technology and dont want to get into something that they no nothing about!

If I came across with an attitude I am sorry. Just like to be devils advocate!

I actually like everthing when it comes to drag racing! I dont care what it is as long as it is fast!

Eric
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
he doesn't bracket race, he runs heads up in real or true street in the psca, i can't remember.

i'm not getting attitude but i am offended by this comment "I mean, you basically have nothing more than a basic 408 and everything from a new Mustang swapped over to it." First i have a distributor so it's not a NEW mustang style efi. Second I don't remember accel ever putting one of their laptop programable computers in a fox body. the only thing from Ford under my hood is the block and the valve covers, and those are both from Ford Racing. Oh, I do have a stock 5.0l throttle linkage.

I never said they should run turbos in top fuel, i never said they should run turbos in pro mod. I said YOU should run two turbos. It's not a top fuel car, it's not a pro mod car, it's just a show car. If your answer was simply "because i dont want to" then i would accept that answer but saying turbos are too restrictive to make more power is not really something i'll buy. A guy I know named Mike Braun took an Eaton off a lightining and put on a turbo, it picked up 67 hp with only 10 psi compared to the 15 it was seeing with the Eaton.

btw, i would have beat your "street" car too.
Does anyone have a STREET car that is fast?
 

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Posted by theguywhoknows (Member # 2148) on :
 
sorry guy's, it just started sounding more and more like an arguement rather than just talk about stuff we like. This is supposed to be fun, not an arguement.

As for the comments about Mr' Paint's car, I was just "assuming" you had late model stuff under the hood is all. I mean, "most" EFI cars that have been converted use a Ford system rather than an after market system, so I just figured it was a basic 408 (being that it isn't a $25,000+ 408, and that it was a retro fit Ford system (being that it has a EFI). No reason to take offense.

To me, your 408 is "basic". I build basic one's too, such as what Missy and who knows how many other people have out there. I also build engines in the $45,000+ area and just finished a Winston Cup style all aluminum 427 small block for a guy in New York City that ended-up being a $33,000 engine, so on that basis, a pump gas, standard aluminum headed, basic parts inside 408 is "basic" to me. No reaon to take offense over it. I just meant it wasn't an alcohol burning, double throw-down muther fucker is all. You are too quick to jump the gun that someone is bashing you, when I'm not at all.

As for your buddy's truck that switched from an Eaton to a turbo, boost is boost and flow is flow. They are two entirely different things. What you said doesn't mean very much because its better to have 1,500 cfm at say, 5 psi of boost than having 600 cfm at say, 15psi of boost. I'm sure if you want to compare numbers, there are other reasons why the HP gain happened, such as inlet / outlet temperature, intake flow, fuel atomization, cavitation charataristics inside the air compressor or around the rotors / impellor, cfm capabilities, displacement size of the compressors, etc. There are too many variables to say one way or the other, not just that the turbo is better.

If turbo's make so much more free power than superchargers, then we are right back at square one, with top fueler's running Roots blowers at 200 psi rather than turbo's. The NET power gain is simply greater with what they have right now. It's that simple. You can argue with me until you're blue in the face and all I can say is go ask a top fuel engine builder... or someone on a top fuel team the next time you are out at the track and you'll get the same answer over and over again. This isn't my first day you know...

This is what I do for a living. I have been there, done that, WAY before you were even born and if "old technology" is what you think I'm about, then that's fine. I could care less because it doesn't matter to me. I have what I have and you have what you have and no matter what you think you have, there is always someone else with more money and the capability to build (or buy) faster cars...

I am happy with my exhibition car and our alcohol dragster I co-own and sponsor. There's no reason to get all huffy - puffy about anything. I never said your car was a piece of shit or anything or that you are just some punk kid that thinks he knows it all. In fact, I said the opposite and that your car sounded nice and that you seemed to know quite a bit, but don't try to compare what you know against what I know... I have a LOT more years (decades) of experience than you and about 700+ more engines under my belt than you, and don't go taking that as anything bad either... 'cause it certainly wasn't meant to be that way.
 

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Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
theguywhoknows - welcome to the site, your knowledgible input is appreciated. Don't let Mr. Paint Job get to you, he's an expert at getting people riled up on the internet.

ps- where were you guys when the "cyber turbo battle" was going on earlier in the week? ( http://www.cafords.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002319;p=2 )

[ December 07, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: st5150 ]
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
It was the "everything from a new Mustang swapped over to it" comment i didn't like. I know it's a basic 408, that's what i keep trying to tell everyone. That is also why I don't understand you keep offering me to race one of your $45,000 408s and not missy's basic 408. Know what i mean? Mine is even more basic than hers. No rocker arm girdle, no solid cam, no lash, no nothing.

The turbo on the lightining wasn't intercooled so the air was even hotter. If that means anything to you.

Stop with the turbos on a top fuel car. we're not talking top fuel here, i'm talking about the motor in your show car. Is it set up to run in top fuel? I'm just talking about your average everyday 7 second race motor. Turbos work better, ESPECIALLY in small tire classes.

Do you ever go up to sears or sac? how often?
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
I think if you were to build a Turbo Top Fueler it would have to be a twin turbo or even a quad turbo. There is not one big enough turbo built yet to make the power! Now, what makes a fueler get its power? Isnt it the Nitro? Correct me if I am wrong but you would not have half the power a fueler has if it ran on even Alcohol, right?

So, I think that Fuel is the major problem, and this is why nobody has ever successfully done this. Nitro would eat everything in a conventional electric fuel injection system. And there's no way to efficiently run a turbo setup without EFI. So for now there stuck.

So, really there is no proof just theories. Technology has to catch up and maybe, just maybe somebody will do it. Turbo's have entered Pro mod. I'm sure that is just the first step!

I wish I could run Nitro! That would be cool!

By the way, I have a 67 mustang. I could race this Missy girl. Would that be fair?

Eric
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
No eric it wouldn't be fair... unless you took your bottle out of the trunk.
 

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Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
I'm liking what 'theguywhoknows' is saying. makes perfect sense.
anyway you can get my POS out of the 15's
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
No eric it wouldn't be fair... unless you took your bottle out of the trunk.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yellow67stang:
LOL, I'll take my bottle out of the trunk!

Mr. Paint, do I know you? Sorry if I do. Dont know screen names.

Eric

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quote:

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Originally posted by shade-tree:
I'm liking what 'theguywhoknows' is saying. makes perfect sense.

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Me too. I'm surprised I haven't heard of his shop/work before... then agian we're in our own EFI world here. Regardless if injection... a long block is a long block

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr Paint Job:
plus your F.A.S.T. set-up makes my DFI look VINTAGE.

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Yup, DFI is considered the "carburetor" of the electronic fuel injection world. Can't get much more basic than DFI.
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
try the commander 950
 

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Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Mr. Paint, I remember you coming up to my car. That day was a mess and it was HOT!!! Had no chance of even getting to round 2 so, didnt want to wait until late that day to get one run off.

You guys dont like my ideas on a Nitro Turbo combo?.........LOL COME ON!!! When I get the money I am going to do it.

You gotta think out of the box to make new stuff up!

Peace

Eric
 

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Posted by Mr Paint Job (Member # 1708) on :
 
i like the idea, it might be easier with mechanical injection though.

That day was AWEFUL, we got down there at 7am and the racing didnt end up starting till like 5pm. I wanted to see your car run, piazza's too but i don't blame you for leaving.
 

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Posted by Jeff S (Member # 371) on :
 
ttt... This thread is pure comedy!

[ March 13, 2003, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: iknowmorethanyou ]
 

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Posted by Cobra5.0Jeep (Member # 1482) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by JOSH:
So you two have anything to say about the topic? If not open a new thred , you can call it "my dick is longer then yours" .

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