This is topic Out of the box AFR heads are better than out of the box TFS heads hands down! in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
I had to start this thread due to the fact that I killed a guys post in the Ford Sale section unintentionally.

I have no hard proof to my claim other than I have been putting together TFS headed small block EFI stangs since 92 (about 10 years now) and as of late I have felt that out of the box AFR heads seem to run better than out of the box TFS heads.

Im not 100% sure of the chamber size on the AFRs so the tiny bit of compression could be the difference.

I have had the chance to see several sets of AFR heads and they have an interesting exhaust port design from what I can tell.

Ill get a picture of both heads side by side and show you.

Now I know that looks doesnt mean shit just like peak flow numbers do and I do realize that intake/cam compression etc can make a big difference but my arguement is that ALL other things equal (cam intake exhaust and such) the AFR heads will outperform the TFS head out of the box.

NOW dont get carried away I myself chose to go with a TEA ported set of TFS heads for my 12.5 to one stroker motor.

Most of my reasoning behind of what I chose is because A. TEA does excellent work and B. I feel that I would have some shrouding with a standard location valve and I would not get a nice burn,or there would be "issues" with my domed piston being that it is about 5 out of the hole.
 
Posted by flatacid (Member # 878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PunkINa5.SLOW:
Im not 100% sure of the chamber size on the AFRs so the tiny bit of compression could be the difference.
afr165's & 185's- 58cc or 61cc
afr205's & 225's-60cc

just a little info for ya. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by flatacid:
quote:
Originally posted by PunkINa5.SLOW:
Im not 100% sure of the chamber size on the AFRs so the tiny bit of compression could be the difference.
afr165's & 185's- 58cc or 61cc
afr205's & 225's-60cc

just a little info for ya. [Big Grin]
Flat that is not what I meant. What I meant was that Ive had a set of TFS CC'd before and they were off.

Im going to assume that the AFRs are a little off as well.

When I say "off" I mean up to 1cc off of what they are sold as i.e. 58cc actually being 58.7 or 59

I dont think that has much to do with any power being made...but you get me drift
 
Posted by 93lx306nos (Member # 1001) on :
 
the diff between 185s and twisted wedge is that the 185 flows much better on the exhaust side.i am pretty sure the intake side is pretty close flow wise and volume wise.
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
For what it's worth here's my flow #'s.

Intake stock

.100 60cfm
.200 120
.300 177
.400 217
.500 232
.600 238

Intake with 2.02's with 165 port

.100 65
.200 136
.300 194
.400 233
.500 244
.600 254

Exhaust #'s with 1 3/4 stub pipe attached

.100 55 cfm
.200 118
.300 161
.400 201
.500 218
.600 225

Really nothing special as far as flow on the intake. Now that the heads are coming off, I'll let you know what they flow when I get em back [Wink]
Aiming for 280 CFM on the same bench at 175-180cc. Also lower intake will be matched to opening of the ports. Interestingly I found out the opening to the 185's/165's are the same. The difference being the last 2/3 of the intake port into the bowl and valve area.

I'd really like to see someone with a cam like mine and TW's using a performer intake and same headers etc. I wonder what the real world results would be. Probably not far from each other but every bit counts. Hey Joe can we talk ya into another cam swap, LOL.
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
what do the racers succeed with?
real street? etc.? far more TFS combos out there.

as far as box stock goes, which would you expect to be better? the factory CNC machined ports? Or the ones that were cast and hit with an emory roll?
[Big Grin]
/me chooses not to participate

one things for sure though--- either head works well. shoot even edelbrock or GT-40X combos have been shown to be capable of 110 mph in a full weight GT.
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shade-tree:
[QB]what do the racers succeed with?
real street? etc.? far more TFS combos out there.

Just a clarification cause that comes up a lot. Real Street doesn't allow AFR heads. Not many classes do and since the heads are fairly new and the classes that do allow them, need time to figure out what works and what doesn't without breaking any rules. Anyway I could really care less what so and so runs cause I'm not in a race class nor do I ever see myself running in one. Just seems in street cars around here and on the net seem to be screamin with the AFR's. My heads would be a more comparable comparison since I have 2.02 valves but roughly the same size port although mine is smaller. The valve size did make a difference even with the stock sized port. I just wish someone around here would build a setup with box TFS heads, performer intake, custom cam etc and see what it does. So if anyone out there is ready to do heads/cam then be our guinea (sp?) pig [Big Grin] I'm as curious as everyone else is. When are you gonna dyno your car Joe? When I get mine back together I'm gonna re tune and we're aiming for 355-360/355-360 TQ with the same cam. I think Nate's is gonna be 380ish with box 185's. His cam is pretty nasty.
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
hmm, didn't know that about real street. makes my statement pretty irrelevant. heh.

when I dyno it, I have a feeling I am going to be everyone's bitch. [Big Grin]

300rwhp or I drive the thing off a cliff [patriot]
 
Posted by roseville5oh (Member # 406) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by shade-tree:
[QB]I just wish someone around here would build a setup with box TFS heads, performer intake, custom cam etc and see what it does. So if anyone out there is ready to do heads/cam then be our guinea (sp?) pig [Big Grin] QB]
Well... How much did your cam cost you? Even though I will be selling my car within a few months, I'd willing to give it a shot. i could sell the GT40 and get the edelbrock. My TFS's are box stock(except for a .004 resurface job) Aaron, let me know. BTW, shaun mentioned something about you going to his place on Sunday? If i don't have to work, i figured i'd head down and watch him figure this degree process out! Shit, if he can get his installed OK, then we could install a new cam in my block easy. I'm down.
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
Yeah, I'm gonna head over to Shaun's tomorrow morning and see the degreeing process etc. I need to call him and get directions. The cam was $295 and my cam guy loves the Edelbrock intakes. If you're down to do it then I'm down to help out in any way to get it up and running. I'd really like to see it run!
 
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
I'd love to see what a custom grind would do for your car Eric. But, I don't think it'll put down the same numbers as Aarons. True, the E cam SUCKS! But I just don't see 8mph from a cam/intake swap. Especially on a tired block.
Well, maybe if we ditch the cats & flowbastads' it'll be closer, but still...
Should probably go with the same cam grinder too...Ed doesn't do 'reverse grinds'.

I say we do it anyway! Then you'll want to keep your baby & sell the green machine!
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
AFRs RULE AFRs RULE!!!

lol

Just playing shade.

Take care.
 
Posted by cobraman_1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by roseville5oh:
Even though I will be selling my car within a few months, I'd willing to give it a shot.
????????? what?????????????
why are you selling your car???????? [Confused]

[ June 29, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: cobraman_1994 ]
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
when I do another motor, be it a straight 351 or a stoker version of it, AFR's are going on it. happy? [Razz]

I was thinking about starting a carbed AFR 185 solid roller buildup in my garage...
any body got a line on 69-71 351w in decent shape?
 
Posted by roseville5oh (Member # 406) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
Yeah, I'm gonna head over to Shaun's tomorrow morning and see the degreeing process etc. I need to call him and get directions. The cam was $295 and my cam guy loves the Edelbrock intakes. If you're down to do it then I'm down to help out in any way to get it up and running. I'd really like to see it run!
I'm really interested. i'll get a performer here within a few weeks. The only thing i'm not confident on is degreeing the cam, but shaun should have that down. Do you know the specs on your cam? I can't go over .52? lift without flycutting. BTW - is it smog legal? Your numbers are impressive. I'd like to try and get close to what you are making at the wheels. What is your 306 comprised of?
 
Posted by roseville5oh (Member # 406) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 93PONY:
I'd love to see what a custom grind would do for your car Eric. But, I don't think it'll put down the same numbers as Aarons. True, the E cam SUCKS! But I just don't see 8mph from a cam/intake swap. Especially on a tired block.
Well, maybe if we ditch the cats & flowbastads' it'll be closer, but still...
Should probably go with the same cam grinder too...Ed doesn't do 'reverse grinds'.

I say we do it anyway! Then you'll want to keep your baby & sell the green machine!
I've wanted a custom cam, you know that. i don't have any idea what kind of difference it will make. Couldn't hurt to try though. I'm thinking about re-ringing the pistons, and doing new crank bearings. You're right, it's time for new mufflers. I just need to decide...
 
Posted by roseville5oh (Member # 406) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cobraman_1994:
????????? what?????????????
why are you selling your car???????? [Confused]
I'm tired of it. Now that jason and I have jacks car, i can finally build my project stang. It's hard with my car being a daily d. I'm sick of not having A/C. I looked at what i still need to finish the car and i figured at least 10k, could be more, and i've already dumped 6k+ into it. With jacks car, it'll be used for racing, so we are going to build it differently, and we are going to split the costs incurred so it won't be as expensive. I'm looking at an Audi a4, maybe s4...
 
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
Cam install didn't go too smooth. Cam end-play needs some attention & the degreeing has thrown me for a loop....could just be that I've been up for nearly 24 hours.
I'll have it figured out tomorrow.
 
Posted by 93PONY (Member # 60) on :
 
D'oh!
Figured out my problem. I didn't have the correct preload on the dial indicator.
Once I figured that out, it was easy!

Whose next? [Wink]
 




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