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Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
Anbybody have any ideas for what 331 with a mild cam such as an E303 with performer rpm heads and a gt40 intake would make at the wheels?...and also if i wanted to stay smog legal are my options for a cam limited to an "E" with the same set up? Any feedback would be great.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
Well you can use any heads that have an EO number.

As for camshafts I have heard that up to TFS stage 2 cams pass the sniffer.

If you are limited to an E cam then I dont see much HP gain with a 331.

There will be some torque and hp gained, but not much with just an e cam and those heads.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
If you are up for suggestions consider this smog legal combo.

306 rebuild with 10 to one TRW pistons

AFR out of the box 165 heads

TFS stage 1 cam

That will run pretty hard

Now that 185 heads have an EO number then I would try a 306 with 10 or as close to 10.5 with TFS stage 2 cam.

Of course this will be borderline for smog but it would pass the sniffer
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
331 at say 9:1 with edelbrock heads, e-cam, and GT-40 intake would probably only make ~300 to the wheels. It could be a little lower.

Dan's combo sounds better. Course a 331 will have about a 10% power potential greater than a 302/6. It's all in the combo.
302 might be happy with AFR 165's, but the 331 would probably be better with 185s, possibly even 205s.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
yeah Id say 10-12% more power out of a 331 with the right heads/cam.

If you go to AFR website they have 306s DYNO at 420-440 that are pretty mild.
 
Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
So if the TFS stage 2 will pass the sniffer, how much hp will I gain ungrading over the E...I believe that the stage 2 is 222 int. and 232 exh.? Also would there be much of a problem using nitrous on a high com. engine with the right tune? Thanx
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
Nitrous loves compression and it loves duration at .050.

It is hard to say how much hp you can gain using that cam versus another cam etc etc.

Im sure there is 10-15hp to be gained using the TFS stage 2 cam over the Stage 1 cam, in the correct application.

Heck AFR motors are seeing 30hp gain from going to a bigger header primary tube (1 5/8 to 1 3/4) so it is hard to say could be more.

Dunno.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
A good case in point would be FMS old crate motors with aluminum heads. One puts out like 5hp more than the other going from an E to a B cam if I remember correctly.
 
Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
I was actually thinking about changing the cam i have in my car...would u guys have any idea of where i should get this done at i know that apex does excelent work but i just wanna talk to a few different folks...also whats the going rate on cam swap?
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
.

[ May 06, 2002, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: shade-tree ]
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
pick up the tool from anderson ford motorsports that allows you to swap a cam without pulling the intake off.
that way, all you have to do is pull the front cover off and use the 'magnet' things to hold the lifters up.
shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours the first time you do it.

APEX/Mustang Ranch would probably charge $500 to do it, not including the price of the cam.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
What intake are you going with? TheBrain made about 315 rwhp if I remember right with a 331, AFR 165's, TFS stage 2 cam and a GT40 intake. AFR 185's and a holley intake will make even more power.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 93Snyper:
I was actually thinking about changing the cam i have in my car...would u guys have any idea of where i should get this done at i know that apex does excelent work but i just wanna talk to a few different folks...also whats the going rate on cam swap?
I charge 300 for a cam swap, you provide the cam and new timing chain/gear if you want that too.
 
Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
Yea the holley and the 185, now thats a great combo...has anybody heard of an X or an F passing smog?...Sounds like deal for a cam swap...do you use that tool that uses the "magnet"?
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
F cam passed smog in one of my cars b fo
 
Posted by cobraman_1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PunkINa5.SLOW:
F cam passed smog in one of my cars b fo
good, i just ordered mine [Big Grin]
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
IMO the X cam would be better than the TFS #2 cam. It shares the same intake lobe but will have a smaller exhaust lobe for less exhaust overlap. That should help smog even more. Probably would gain more power too in an NA application.
 
Posted by v8302stangs (Member # 530) on :
 
Hey Cobraman 94 - have you lowered your car at all? I just picked up some cobra r rims and they should be on real soon, was trying to figure out if there will be any clearance problems - I have a 95
 
Posted by cobraman_1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
i havnt lowered my car... yet [Wink] i will soon. did you get 17's or 18's. i still have the stock cobras on there, but ill have the 18's on soon [Razz]
 
Posted by TheBrain (Member # 35) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
What intake are you going with? TheBrain made about 315 rwhp if I remember right with a 331, AFR 165's, TFS stage 2 cam and a GT40 intake. AFR 185's and a holley intake will make even more power.
Keep in mind that the 315 RWHP was with a "custom" chip from Terry @ Mustang Ranch [Mad]
The car has run a best of 12.36 @ 110 mph WITHOUT the chip but only 13.27 @ 103 mph with the POS chip.
The car weighed just shy of 3600 lbs on both runs so I am positive that there are around 350 -355 @ the rear wheels.

FWIW,
My car passes the "sniffer" w/TFS stage 2 cam without ANY problems

Good Luck
Brian
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheBrain:

The car weighed just shy of 3600 lbs on both runs so I am positive that there are around 350 -355 @ the rear wheels.
[/QB]
I know. Everyone was impressed at with the numbers your heavy LX put up using that 331 bottem end. with box stock 302 parts above it.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
IMO the X cam would be better than the TFS #2 cam. It shares the same intake lobe but will have a smaller exhaust lobe for less exhaust overlap. That should help smog even more. Probably would gain more power too in an NA application.
I argree for smog but I dont like same lift on exhaust sas on the intake i like to see more lift/duration on the exhaust side on SB dorfs
 
Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
Ok, here's a big question concerning the clearance with the lift of the cam-.542/.563...Can i run it with 1.7's? [Confused]
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by 93Snyper:
Anbybody have any ideas for what 331 with a mild cam such as an E303 with performer rpm heads and a gt40 intake would make at the wheels?...and also if i wanted to stay smog legal are my options for a cam limited to an "E" with the same set up? Any feedback would be great.
Sorry, I read your post more closely. That virtual combo you listed would pretty much be a "joke". It'll give stroker 5.O's a bad name with the numbers it'll put up. Since you're going to be running non stock pistons, why not get aftermarket ones with reliefs that will clear what ever cam you want to run? Look at TheBrains combo and spruce it up a bit, here is a cookie cutter smog-able combo: 331+AFR 185's + tfs stage 2 cam + tfs track heat intake. If you're not going to add a power adder, why not go with a 347?
 
Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheBrain:
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
[qb]What intake are you going with? TheBrain made about 315 rwhp if I remember right with a 331, AFR 165's, TFS stage 2 cam and a GT40 intake. AFR 185's and a holley intake will make even more power.
Keep in mind that the 315 RWHP was with a "custom" chip from Terry @ Mustang Ranch [Mad]
The car has run a best of 12.36 @ 110 mph WITHOUT the chip but only 13.27 @ 103 mph with the POS chip.
The car weighed just shy of 3600 lbs on both runs so I am positive that there are around 350 -355 @ the rear wheels.
Possible faulty chip...happened to me once, car ran like crap so i went back an got a new chip, come to find out there was a problem with the internals of the chip...what kind of chip and was Byron there?
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
If I were building a "street" 331 I'd go for:

331 (duh)
10.5-11:1 compression
AFR-185s (what the hell)
Holley Intake (ported)
comp cam 282 HR
-----------
I'd expect 400 rwhp, however, IMHO, I'd rather hit that figure with a 351, more room to grow.
 
Posted by cobraman_1994 (Member # 467) on :
 
what about mine? with out a poweradder [Wink]
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PunkINa5.SLOW:
[/qb]
I argree for smog but I dont like same lift on exhaust sas on the intake i like to see more lift/duration on the exhaust side on SB dorfs[/QB][/QUOTE]

It's really going to depend on the heads and induction setup and the whole combo that will determine what cam would be best. Lately I've been seeing several reversed split cams on the corral and Camara90 has one and so do I on my 306. His car runs like an animal for a street 347 since his upgrade to 185's and the custom cam. I got my 306 running last night and even with some tuning problems this thing is gonna be a RUNNER for a street 306 (112-115 mph NA in a drop top). My cam specs look like this 224/222 .555/.528 111 LSA and 274/272 at .006. Mike's are 232/228, .565/.538, 110 LSA 282/278 at .006. It's an interesting concept but our cam grinder says it's what makes these long runner efi motors run. He also likes a late intake closing point because of the long runners. On most aftermarket cams like the TFS #1 he strongly recommends that you retard it to a 115 Intake Centerline and put 1.7 rockers on the INTAKE ONLY. He says the hefty exhaust bias is not needed in most applications. So far I'd say this stuff is working pretty damn well. He's been accurate as to Mike's car and from what I can tell so far, mine too. They're also starting to do reverse split cams on LS1's with LOT's of success.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
quote:
Originally posted by PunkINa5.SLOW:
I argree for smog but I dont like same lift on exhaust sas on the intake i like to see more lift/duration on the exhaust side on SB dorfs[/QB]
It's really going to depend on the heads and induction setup and the whole combo that will determine what cam would be best. Lately I've been seeing several reversed split cams on the corral and Camara90 has one and so do I on my 306. His car runs like an animal for a street 347 since his upgrade to 185's and the custom cam. I got my 306 running last night and even with some tuning problems this thing is gonna be a RUNNER for a street 306 (112-115 mph NA in a drop top). My cam specs look like this 224/222 .555/.528 111 LSA and 274/272 at .006. Mike's are 232/228, .565/.538, 110 LSA 282/278 at .006. It's an interesting concept but our cam grinder says it's what makes these long runner efi motors run. He also likes a late intake closing point because of the long runners. On most aftermarket cams like the TFS #1 he strongly recommends that you retard it to a 115 Intake Centerline and put 1.7 rockers on the INTAKE ONLY. He says the hefty exhaust bias is not needed in most applications. So far I'd say this stuff is working pretty damn well. He's been accurate as to Mike's car and from what I can tell so far, mine too. They're also starting to do reverse split cams on LS1's with LOT's of success.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Well Aaron you cant argue with numbers but I think that alot of that has to do with the heads.

Those AFRs pretty much have a very good exhaust port as compared to most aftermarket heads.

You are right about the fact that it depends on the intake/heads and motor as to what cam will run harder.

I have to be honest tho, I am VERY surprised that the cams favoring the intake are running as hard as they are with AFRs.

This is probably due to the long runner EFI manifold now that I think about it.

You learn something new everyday but I am in the same boat as you. I ran both cams and toyed with my idea and the cams favoring exhaust always worked better for me

BUT you have to realize that my personal cars have mostly been carb cars that I played with cams alot on.

Hmmm have me thinking now.....

I wonder how a cam with more lift, less duration on exhaust would work?

For example

238/232 565/582 but on a 112 not a 110.

and at 50 for duration.

wonder how that would run?

lol man technology is a mother.....
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by shade-tree:
If I were building a "street" 331 I'd go for:

331 (duh)
10.5-11:1 compression
AFR-185s (what the hell)
Holley Intake (ported)
comp cam 282 HR
-----------
I'd expect 400 rwhp, however, IMHO, I'd rather hit that figure with a 351, more room to grow.
shade that is funny cause that is the exact motor that I just put together for a local here.

Except for the camshaft

But it is a bottle baby so Im not gonna play with the cams that have been working for Aaron and Camara as we all know nitrous cams are choosey so I went with a tried and true.
 
Posted by 93Snyper (Member # 1058) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
IMO the X cam would be better than the TFS #2 cam. It shares the same intake lobe but will have a smaller exhaust lobe for less exhaust overlap. That should help smog even more. Probably would gain more power too in an NA application.
I'm following you guys here ... but does this imply that the less duration and lift on the exhaust is better for smog????

Last time i was at the track i saw a stang with 331, E, AFR 165s & Performer RPM with a weight of 3300, best run was at 108 is this about right considering the cam?
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
Dan,

For sure I hear what you're saying. He made it clear to me that different induction types need different valve timing etc to optimize performance (carb/efi's having different needs). In my case it was EFI. He flowed my AFR heads and they have one incredible exhaust port. The heads are very efficient like you mentioned. Technology has come a long way. A year ago I would've had a completely different setup.

93Snyper- I'm not sure what you want out of your car but Mike's combo is very simple and should be repeatable by anyone with the same parts. Box stock AFR 185's, The custom cam I mentioned, Holley intake, 75 mm TB, 1 3/4 headers (His track times are with the 1 5/8), Pro M 75 MAF, 30 lb injectors. That was good for near 120 traps in a full weight car (3380). He should be solid into the 120's by next time. The car drives great too. The aggressive lobes on the cam give less total duration but ramp em up VERY fast. Good luck with the setup and let us know what you choose.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
The car drives great too.
So he found out what his problem was?
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
[qb][/QUOTE]I'm following you guys here ... but does this imply that the less duration and lift on the exhaust is better for smog????

Overlap is the amount of time the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. The more overlap you have the worse the emmisions will be. Seriously, a custom cam done by a reputable efi mustang guy can provide great gains. The new technology of fast ramp rate lobes has allowed for better drivability because the valves open and close much quicker, keeping velocity high and giving the cylinder more time to compress it's air/fuel charge. The guy who did our cams likes to have the cam degreed to have a later intake closing point because of the "ram" effect the long runners provide. For ex. most cam companies have advance built into their cams. The X cam for instance if installed 'dot to dot' should come out to a 107-108 intake centerline. A cam is said to be installed straight up when it's installed on the same intake centerline as the Lobe separation. So the X cam has a 112 LSA so the real straight up would be 112 intake centerline when degreed. My cam has a 111 LSA and is installed at a 113 intake centerline, therefore 2 degrees retarded. Now if you look at the closing points for the X installed dot to dot (107) and mine (113), you can see that's a 6 degree difference as to where the intake valve closes. Mine was set to that because of my Performer intake that measures around 20" long. Basically he's saying you won't give up torque when the cam has a later closing point (when degreed for your application), but will gain top end power because the velocity through the runners is still high and if you close it too soon you're basically slamming the door on a still high flowing intake charge. I know it's a lot of crap I just threw out, but it makes total sense and his work has proven to be very successful. The great thing I liked about him was that even if I had chosen an off the shelf cam he still told me where I should degree it for that cams optimum performance, and in some cases stick 1.7 rockers on the intake side only. The main reason he keeps the exhaust side calmer is because overlap doesn't work (scavenging) if exhaust velocity isn't high enough to pull the intake charge through. He can explain all this much better than I can. His website is www.hitechmotorsport.com if you want to check it out. If you have any tech questions call him or E mail him. He's been most supportive with me and Mike to make sure we optimize our setups.
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by st5150:
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
The car drives great too.
So he found out what his problem was?
LOL, that was before the current issues. He's still troubleshooting for that. He thinks it could be a faulty fuel pump [Confused] I have no idea. He's literally tried almost everything.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
Regrounding or extra grounding everything won't hurt. You can also try unplugging one sensor at a time (with the car off, key out) and running the car to see which one is sending BS info.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AaronC:
Dan,

For sure I hear what you're saying. He made it clear to me that different induction types need different valve timing etc to optimize performance (carb/efi's having different needs). In my case it was EFI. He flowed my AFR heads and they have one incredible exhaust port. The heads are very efficient like you mentioned. Technology has come a long way. A year ago I would've had a completely different setup.

93Snyper- I'm not sure what you want out of your car but Mike's combo is very simple and should be repeatable by anyone with the same parts. Box stock AFR 185's, The custom cam I mentioned, Holley intake, 75 mm TB, 1 3/4 headers (His track times are with the 1 5/8), Pro M 75 MAF, 30 lb injectors. That was good for near 120 traps in a full weight car (3380). He should be solid into the 120's by next time. The car drives great too. The aggressive lobes on the cam give less total duration but ramp em up VERY fast. Good luck with the setup and let us know what you choose.
For sheez Aaron, I will admit that I am VERY surprised that this cam grind is working great, but man I just have to sit back and just shut up when you have a stock bottom end or an under 10 to one AFR headed 306 running 115mph in the 1/4 with out of the box AFRs in a heavyish car (3400-3300)

I just cant argue with that.

but you know different intakes, different heads etc....well I guess we all know what cam profile is a running mofo with 306 or 347 and AFR heads.

WOW

but hey man I guess we have to thank technology, tho it can be a mother....it is putting 306s up there with LS1 trap speed (looks like)
 
Posted by AaronC (Member # 86) on :
 
Actually I just had a new 306 built. Compression is right at 10:1. My 165's (bought used from Mike) did receive 2.02 valves and a slight bowl blend (didn't help much on the flowbench). The heads had excellent low lift #'s and had 247 CFM at .500 and 250 something at .600. The intake valves alone were worth nearly 15 CFM across the board. I can post my before and after results if you're interested. Brian at Hi Tech recommended I go with the bigger valves since piston to valve clearance wouldn't be an issue. His power quote was 340+ RWHP and 350 RWTQ when dialed in. Also at least 113 traps at 3450 lbs. From what I've felt from it so far, I'm positive it'll be right where he said when it's all tuned in. I gotta call Byron and see when he can get to it. For sure the LS1 guys have made EVERYONE step their game up. I just want to see other 5.0 guys represent us well and not stick a Mickey Mouse combo together. Technology has come a long way on both sides. I just like to be the under dog in their eyes (LS1's) and when I pop the hood and they see "all motor" and a "306" and rub it in. I hope other guys on here will see what's working and follow to show some of these LS1's what's up. Later on I'll rig up the bottle again.
 




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