This is topic 408 rear wheel estimates? in forum Tech Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


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Posted by jayl (Member # 185) on :
 
I am just curious to what a pump gassed, decent head 408 can make through a 5spd.? I am guessing 10.5:1 comp. w/ large cam and maybe vic jr. heads........or any other combo you can think of. and also solid vs. hydraulic......just curious , thanks for any info [dance]
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
500 rwhp would be a good target for a self-respecting combo
 
Posted by jayl (Member # 185) on :
 
thanks......and im guessing similar torque?
 
Posted by v8302stangs (Member # 530) on :
 
Wouldn't you say that a 351w could handle more hp durability wise than a 302?
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
400-440rwhp is the realistic range. Victor jr's are probably too small, I'd look "bigger" and you're going to have to make peak HP in the 6000 RPM range.

500 rwhp can be done with a properly setup solid roller, but I don't know if you want to deal with a solid roller.



v8302stangs- it depends on what block you're talking about, but generally speaking... YES, since everything on the 351 is "bigger".
 

Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Im making 702hp with Vic Jr heads. Probably figure a 15% loss to the wheels.
 
Posted by jayl (Member # 185) on :
 
bigger as a yates or a canfield design? or a different porter?
 
Posted by imbroken (Member # 165) on :
 
erm, Solid roller isn't a good idea on a street vehicle.. unless you like constant maintenance work...
 
Posted by jayl (Member # 185) on :
 
well it wouldnt be a daily driver......and the thought of regularly taking off the valve covers doesnt scare me away, because the power gain is worth it
 
Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Canfield are not even in the same leauge as a Yates,C-3, or Neal head. They are an in line valve head with about the same potential as a Vic Jr. The Brodix Track 1 head with x/ports have VERY good potential. Also the Glidden Victor heads are making a lot of power. Even the standard Vic head is good. It really depends on how much money you want to spend! If you need help on your combo let me know.

Eric
CM Racing
 

Posted by jayl (Member # 185) on :
 
thanks man.........but these are just ideas for now........as im a chevy guy........but i was lookin at some pre built 93' cobras.......i think theyre bad cars....
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
I have am putting a 408 windsor stroker in my 67' Fastback. I definetely recommend the Victor Jr. Heads with some port work (mine are Stage II port), with the Victor Jr. intake port matched. You could go bigger heads if you want to such as Air Flow research 205s, but heads that are bigger such as these are .150 thousandths too big on the exhaust port side and would need custom headers. The Victor Jr.s will work awesome. As far as my engine combo I went with roller rockers, lifter, and a custom Hyrdraulic roller so that I don't need to keep reajusting the timing. I should be making 500 RWHP with this setup. Hope this helps.
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
Also, as far as my combo I am running 10:1 compression with forged piston and forged H-beam rods. Also yes, this iron block setup with the right setup such as mine can take 750 horsepower safely. The HP should be peaking at around 5500 RPMs as the 351W block cannot take anything higher with any setup than 7000 RPMs. I will be setting my tach to shift at between 6500 to 6800 depending on the situation, but most likely 6500.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
Scu Eleanor what does this quote mean?


"Hyrdraulic roller so that I don't need to keep reajusting the timing."

???????

Im only wondering.


JAYL I have sent my heads to Brian at TEA and they are standard TFS heads that already have tons of work done to them. Long story short when I get them back I hope to make 500 hp on motor with my 12.5 to one 331 and a solid roller with port matched victor jr intake.

This is not a 408 tho.

The Coug has Victor Jr heads with port work done to them (hope I didnt give away any info that will get me clawed to death). You could ask him how they work.

I think that a serious 408 (more than 10 to one and roller cammed solid or hyd) should have TFS R heads on it out of the box at the least.

There is something to be said for the amazing low lift numbers of a standard TFS, worked by TEA and they still keep up with the R heads up top until about 660 lift.......
 

Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
What I meant was Hydrualic roller CAMSHAFT
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
What I meant was Hydrualic roller CAMSHAFT and that with the roller lifters, plus roller rockers, plus hydrualic roller camshaft that I wouldn't need to keep readjusting the timing. Whereas if I had solid roller lifters I would need to readjust them. Sorry to be unclear.
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
Would you need custom headers with TFS Racing heads, my guess is that they will? Once you start adding race parts to your engine, it will have less driveability for the street and possible need higher fuel octane. I think 10:5:1 you should still be okay but I am not positive. I just like sticking to high performance street so you don't have to deal with the maintenance of race parts.
 
Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
I think that almost any head will make the power you want if you put the time in. A lot of good head people said that I could not get 700+ Hp with Vic Jr heads. Its just easier to do with a bigger type head like a R head or Vic Sr. head. You have much more potential with these heads. If I had to do it all over again and kept a 23 degree head I would have gone with the Brodix X port head. You can make great power out of the box with these and you have A LOT of room to grow with these. But, you have to change flanges for the exhaust on you headers which would require some welding. Easy for some, difficult for others.
Don't know many people running the 220 AFR heads. I wonder how well they work. I bet they are pretty good! But, nobody makes shaft rockers for them.....yet.

Peace
Eric
 

Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
What setup are you running with you 720 HP engine? just curious
 
Posted by shade-tree (Member # 298) on :
 
when you say 'timing' don't you mean 'valve-lash'?
only way timing moves around is with a loosy-loosy distributor (or some other evil problems)
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
I just mean adjusting the lifters...so that all the valves open at the right TIME...did mean actual timing..
 
Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Well, its a W-block with a scat billet crank and GRP aluminum rods with ross pistons. The cam is an .800 lift high duration solid roller. The comp is 16 to 1 topped with Vic Jrs. that have massive work done to them. Then I am running a speed pro Fuel injection system with a 90mm TP. I made 702hp not 720. I still have yet to squeeze on the motor. I think we will be doing that Friday. Looking for around 1000hp with a mild n20 setup. Hopefully we can do it. So, you can make 702hp but not on a street car! Im a bad example for this topic.
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
I was just wondering how you are going to not have to adjust your timing just because you went with a hyd roller cam.

It is not true that you consantly have to adj valves on a solid roller setup.

Not true at all.

My combo is a 12.5 to one 331 with TEA TFS heads and a solid roller with two stages of nitrous both at 150.

I hope this makes 700-750hp.
 

Posted by Chris_67_SC_408 (Member # 936) on :
 
My buddy had put 3000 miles on his solid roller cam and he has checked the lash 3 times and only once he had to make minor adjustments to a couple rocker arms.

yellow67stang,
What does your car look like?

Someone needs to figure out how to make 700 hp with .550" lift, 9:1 compression, and out of the box heads.
 

Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
My car is a yellow 67 mustang with a thunderbolt hood. How do you post pics on the page without a Http address? I have pics of it but not on a website. I can e-mail you a pic.

Sorry,
Eric
 

Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
My car is a yellow 67 mustang with a thunderbolt hood. How do you post pics on the page without a Http address? I have pics of it but not on a website. I can e-mail you a pic.

Sorry,
Eric


Good thing you asked: http://www.cafords.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003593

The picture files can only be 170K in size though.

-Sawson
 

Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Sweet thanks.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
Sweet thanks.

Awesome picture:

http://www.cafords.com/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=00000903/Stang.JPG


What was the outcome of that race???


-Sawson
 

Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
That was right after my burnout of my first pass that weekend at the first race of the year. After that I staged, and a second after that I was D'qued. My tranny was leaking! It was no big deal just spilled some fluid on the tranny blanket and it was still dripping. The shitty part of this whole thing was that I went back to the pits and cleaned everything up. Started it back up and threw a pushrod! Luckly this happened in the pits. Took off the valve covers and saw that no oil was reaching the rockers and at that point figured to cut my losses and go home. So, I have no offical times as of yet. Long drive for nothing! But thats racing.....I guess.
I basically fired my old machine shop and went to a better shop and found out that stuff like that should not happen! He got me on the right track, found a lot more HP and put the speed-pro on it, now I should be fine. going to do some more pulls on the dyno this week and will pick up on Friday. Then, the ASS BUSTING begins!!! I have to get it ready for Bakersfeild by the 19th. Dont know if I am going to make it but I will try! Need the points!
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
Punk5.0Slow- read my combo again...I said already that solid lifters would have to be adjusted...I have roller lifters and roller rockers...roller lifters don't need to be adjusted because they are attached...
 
Posted by ScuEleanor (Member # 785) on :
 
and I didn't say anything about constant readjusting...
 
Posted by PunkINa5.SLOW (Member # 10) on :
 
I only asked a question as to how roller lifters would help you to have to NOT readjust your timing.
 
Posted by Chris_67_SC_408 (Member # 936) on :
 
Damn that is a nice car. Very stock looking, i was expecting to see something like that 69 next to you. I LIKE IT.
 
Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Thank you! I compete in a true street class so most of the cars are stock looking. The only thing that doesnt look stock is the parachute and the wing that I am adding.
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
That was right after my burnout of my first pass that weekend at the first race of the year. After that I staged, and a second after that I was D'qued. My tranny was leaking! It was no big deal just spilled some fluid on the tranny blanket and it was still dripping. The shitty part of this whole thing was that I went back to the pits and cleaned everything up. Started it back up and threw a pushrod! Luckly this happened in the pits. Took off the valve covers and saw that no oil was reaching the rockers and at that point figured to cut my losses and go home. So, I have no offical times as of yet. Long drive for nothing! But thats racing.....I guess.
I basically fired my old machine shop and went to a better shop and found out that stuff like that should not happen! He got me on the right track, found a lot more HP and put the speed-pro on it, now I should be fine. going to do some more pulls on the dyno this week and will pick up on Friday. Then, the ASS BUSTING begins!!! I have to get it ready for Bakersfeild by the 19th. Dont know if I am going to make it but I will try! Need the points!


What kind of tranny do you have behind this beast? Do you have any more pictures to upload? We want to see more

-Sawson [patriot]
 

Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
Right now it has a T350 in it. I have a glide waiting to be put in but have no time to put it in before the 19th. I have more pics at work. I can post more than one?
 
Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
Right now it has a T350 in it. I have a glide waiting to be put in but have no time to put it in before the 19th. I have more pics at work. I can post more than one?


Yup, every member has a 1 meg limit, that means you get can get at least 6 pictures up... most can fit 10-15 pictures with no problems: www.98cobra.com/album
 

Posted by st5150 (Member # 51) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yellow67stang:
Right now it has a T350 in it. I have a glide waiting to be put in but have no time to put it in before the 19th. I have more pics at work. I can post more than one?
Gotten a chance to put anymore pictures up?
 
Posted by yellow67stang (Member # 903) on :
 
2 more pics loaded. One was from a year ago at Sac. The other is a motor pic from 2 months ago. Its out dated because I totally changed the motor but its all I got.
 




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