This is topic Whats Better For My Car??? in forum General Talk at Northern California Ford Owners  .


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://californiafords.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=031401

---

Posted by 98 GT (Member # 7944) on :
 
what is better for my car as a first mod...long tube headers or cold air intake??? or wat is better than both??
 

---

Posted by Cobraboy (Member # 7826) on :
 
gears
 

---

Posted by Blind (Member # 3052) on :
 
full length subframe connectors, then gears.
 

---

Posted by Cobraboy (Member # 7826) on :
 
sub frame connectors?! what are those?!?!!
 

---

Posted by EPIKMACH (Member # 7481) on :
 
Dont waste your time putting headers on a 98 GT, the gains wont be signifigant enough for how much cost & labor is involved. CAI wont do much either. Gears would probably be your best bet on that car. Then I would start saving up for a pi conversion. The PI conversion (99-04 heads, cams, Intake manifold etc.) would give your car about a 45 hp increase & will give u a much better foundation to add cai, plenum, throttle body etc.
 

---

Posted by cummins (Member # 5931) on :
 
NITROUS!!!!
 

---

Posted by 93ReefBlue5.0 (Member # 5780) on :
 
dustin, you can't say headers are a no go.. with the pi conversion and longtubes w/ gears, the car will be much better. look how much jessie gained on his 96' with kooks.. all that motor had was a pi motor, with all bolt-ons..
 

---

Posted by 98 GT (Member # 7944) on :
 
Thnx everyone....but how much would it cost to get my gears installed?? an do i waste alot of gas or close to what im waisting now??
 

---

Posted by EPIKMACH (Member # 7481) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 93ReefBlue5.0:
dustin, you can't say headers are a no go.. with the pi conversion and longtubes w/ gears, the car will be much better. look how much jessie gained on his 96' with kooks.. all that motor had was a pi motor, with all bolt-ons..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 98 GT:
Thnx everyone....but how much would it cost to get my gears installed?? an do i waste alot of gas or close to what im waisting now??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnB:
Send me a pm, I'll hook you up...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cummins:
NITROUS!!!!

---

 

---

Posted by Jessie P (Member # 7073) on :
 
If he did the P.I. swap on that block he will also get a bump in compression which will give him alittle more. Honestly I would do gears and suspension. It depends on what you honestly want to do. If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.
 

---

Posted by Jessie P (Member # 7073) on :
 
Here's a great write up from a buddy of mine who also did the PI swap on his car. I think it covers alot of information.

I did the PI swap on my car back when it first came avaliable, and yes it was pricy then.


I. "The Car"
IMO the PI heads/intake is the only thing that seperated us from the newer mustangs. And We have better looks!!!
Also, the chassis has been relatively the same since the fox body until the 04 GT.
So all these guys that say "the 96-98 is the worst ever!!!....... you should just buy a different car." bla bla bla.
If that's they're opinion, they're welcome to it - but I prefer to look at the whole picture.


Here's a basic rule I consider when looking at upgrading parts.
If the new part doesn't remove a resitriction in your engines air-flow, you will gain no power.

The PI heads are a big restriction if you want more power - ie. more air-flow.
they have decient low end and some torque to get you going, but at about 4800 rpm they fall on they're face.
BC, the airflow is maxed!

To increase power on these cars there are a number of bolt on's avaliable.
I have done most of them and only recommend gears, CAI, and Exhaust (mufflers)
Gears- you really feel the difference,
CAI- is relatively inexpensive, and you can feel a little difference, though some brands are crap.
Exhaust- it's all about the sound, minor power gain.
hedders are cool, but dont give you much, if any power unless you add a blower. KB doesn't even recommend them for they're kits.

Most bolt-on's dont give you much of a power gain to be worth the cost, I say save it for a blower or, in our case
PI "stuff" and/or blower.


II. " The PI"
So, on the PI note -
There's basically 3 options to gain power...

1a- PI intake swap without adaptor kit - gains 18 rwhp NA. (naturally asperated)

To do this, you will need the following parts:
XW7Z-9439-AA intake gskt $6.08 ea
F8AZ-10153-EA alt brkt $10.53
XR3Z-18B402-AA coolant tube $19.67
F1VY-8255-A thermstat housing o-ring $3.83
F1VY-8507-A water pump o-ring $2.43
XR3Z-9L437-BA upper plenum o-ring $3.05
F75Z-8555-AA coolant tube nipple $5.73

1b- PI intake swap with adaptor kit - couldnt find dyno results but I'm sure it's a little more power because there's no
step inside the runner where it meets the head - resistance.
Livernois has a kit with the adapter plates and all the parts, or you can just get the intake.

Here's a good thread on the swap: http://www.redpulsar.us/~coldfusion/intakeswap.html


2- PI intake and custom cams -
You can get a decient power gain from this, there are a few different cams for NPI heads, NA or supercharged.
You're looking at around 40 HP gain here.
VTengines.com has some good cams for this.
but remember - this is the limit you can gain, your increasing the volume of air the cylinder can take by using the cam,
gaining a little extra flow with the intake, but are limited by the size of the intake ports, and valve stroke.


3- The PI Swap - consisting of the PI heads and intake, and all the gaskets, head changing kit ect.

Gains 60 HP straight swap.

Gain - 100-120 rwhp (supercharged - meaning on a car that was alread supercharged, not the heads and blower gains added together)

Gains 80-130 rwhp ported with cams, naturally asperated.

Ported Heads, Intake, cams and blowers... all you could use.
A guy at THP I spoke to got 780 rwhp with ported PI, cams, forged bottom, and turbos.
and alot of tuning... all out of his "crappy" little 2V.

Other examples:
I can't find the link, but on corral there is a long thread I was involved in, a guy on there was in the same boat, my cousin is in - had a vortec wanted more power, did the PI headswap, kept same boost, all that - gained 110 rwhp.
So supercharged, he gained over 100 HP by only changeing the heads and intake. He did no porting or cams. (that I remeber)
That's impressive.

As I mentioned in other posts, I've talked to a number of guys that got 130+ rwhp with ported PI's, custom cam, and a good tune.
This also leaves you potention to increase power in the future if you want more.
This is where I am with my car.
I gained 95 rwhp, with a so-so tune, and at 4800 ft. elevation 5 years ago when I did mine. Automatic trans also.
Got my stuff here: http://www.powerheads.com/headswap.html
Next is forged rotating assembly and blowers.

Let's not forget that the mighty 5.0 is a 2 V. with 1 cam, and can get awsome power. Are there different heads avaliable for that?...


III. "The Rest"
Once you get here you have to look at the rest of the drivetrain.
Our rods are limited at approximately 450 rwhp - after that your chances of sneezing one out of the block are good.
Forged rods, pistons and Crank are recommended.
After that your transmission will blow up, and axles can go if you push over 500 rwhp.

Another thing I see is people say the compression will go up......
So what. the modular loves high compression. and if you're adding a blower, that's what your doing anyway.

If you go custom cam or porting you will need a tune. I recommend finding a very experieced tuner. It makes a big difference.
Detonation is the main cause of a blown engine.
the main cause for detonation is a bad tune.


Money is the big factor with the Swap.
Until reciently it was about $3000 or more depending on what you wanted in way of porting, valves and cams.
The labor involved can also add up if you're paying someone to do it.

When I found this, I was impressed.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1996-1998-Mustang-GT-4-6L-PI-Head-Swap-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33617QQitemZ8058206811QQtcZphoto
This is what my cousin is doing for his 98 - already has a vortec.
I'll post up his results....

1350 for everything, WOW.
1595 at powerheads.


As some have stated, you can find used PI heads, for even less.

So, to sum it up:
If you want between 250-350 hp, a blower and bolt on's will do you.
(Or the PI swap and good cams.)

If you want more than 400 - the PI is a must.
It's the place to start for serious HP gains.
 

---

Posted by Cobraboy (Member # 7826) on :
 
you know one thing i find pretty funny is the fact that the cost of "performance parts" verses the power you will gain from those parts are all relative... let me explain...

you do a FULL exhaust setup (using my car for example).. headers ~500$, x pipe ~200$, catback ~300$... the gain is about 20-25 hp tq to the wheels over stock...

so you have paid 1k to gain ~25 hp...

OR... you could buy a basic kb setup for about 4 grand to make ~100 hp tq...

see what im getting at?

basically just spend your money the way you want to. honestly, though, if i were to start over... i would just save my money and buy a supercharger and call it a day.

the important thing to consider is labor also... if you are doing big things like headers (which honestly didnt seem like as much of a PITA as i thought) consider whether or not you will be paying for the installation as well. because a 500 part turns into a 1,000 dollar job in the end.

things to consider... just thinking out loud

[ December 24, 2007, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Cobraboy ]
 

---

Posted by Jessie P (Member # 7073) on :
 
Buying a blower doesn't always mean the most power for your dollar. For 4k I can build a bad ass motor that would out shine a stock cobra with a blower any day of the week. Like I said it's all about what your trying to do. To build a car on a budget theres nothing better then a good old pushrod.
 

---

Posted by EPIKMACH (Member # 7481) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

Very wise advice there buddy....
 

---

Posted by Blind (Member # 3052) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

Its alot more power than the 175rwhp that a non pi 2V puts out...Oh...Im sorry, 190rwhp...

My 4V put out 287rwhp with just a highflow catted H pipe, catback, & intake. So I would say theres alot more potential in the 32V for sure..

[ December 25, 2007, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: EPIKMACH ]
 

---

Posted by Blind (Member # 3052) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by EPIKMACH:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

Its alot more power than the 175rwhp that a non pi 2V puts out...Oh...Im sorry, 190rwhp...

My 4V put out 287rwhp with just a highflow catted H pipe, catback, & intake. So I would say theres alot more potential in the 32V for sure..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EPIKMACH:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

Its alot more power than the 175rwhp that a non pi 2V puts out...Oh...Im sorry, 190rwhp...


My 4V put out 287rwhp with just a highflow catted H pipe, catback, & intake. So I would say theres alot more potential in the 32V for sure..

---

yeah, my car has B heads not C heads like your mach.

the PI swap on a nPI motor can make the same kind of power though, and I think with more torque.

---

I had a 97 Cobra at one time & although it wasnt as powerful as my Mach, It felt alot stronger than any 2V I ever drove... A cammed PI 2V with all the bolt ons will do very well but like Jessie said, thats a very costly road to take...

But back to the topic at hand...To the thread starter,I still think 3.73's & maybe some good suspension & tires will be some good mods to start off with....Good luck

[ December 25, 2007, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: EPIKMACH ]
 

---

Posted by Jessie P (Member # 7073) on :
 
Back on topic gears first. 3.73s will be a nice jump from the 2.73s you have. Gas mileage will be about the same. Not too bad. If you have plans taking the car to the track then I would say get some subframes, Lower COntrol Arms, lowering springs in you wish but make sure you get some Max. Motorsport 4 bolt caster camber plates to correct the alignment when you lower it. If your going to want some bolt on's JLT intakes are great for the money compaired to these crap brands like BBK. Accufab also makes great products for the 2v's. Throw on a pypes off road X-pipe with a Magnapack cat back and you'll be more then happy with the way the car will sound. Under drive pullies are decent but don't get the piggy back style get the steeda kit. Also make sure when your doing this stuff take a look at things like your suspension bushings stuff like that. Your already there and plus its well worth doing some preventive stuff so that way you don't have to go through all of it again. If your desire is too build a 2v my recommendation to you is find a motor and build one up from there.

[ December 25, 2007, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Jessie P ]
 

---

Posted by F8LSN8K (Member # 7080) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

hope its stock? doesnt seem like much, my pushrod made like 250rwhp pretty much with just a E303 cam. aint shit to me, i still have a ways to go though
 

---

Posted by Jessie P (Member # 7073) on :
 
4v's make anywhere from 250-260 bone stock.
 

---

Posted by Blind (Member # 3052) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by F8LSN8K:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

hope its stock? doesnt seem like much, my pushrod made like 250rwhp pretty much with just a E303 cam. aint shit to me, i still have a ways to go though

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by F8LSN8K:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

hope its stock? doesnt seem like much, my pushrod made like 250rwhp pretty much with just a E303 cam. aint shit to me, i still have a ways to go though

---

yes, it's a stock 4v with b heads, no headers or anything, stock manifolds...but it does rev to 7k rpm's just fine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EPIKMACH:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by F8LSN8K:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

hope its stock? doesnt seem like much, my pushrod made like 250rwhp pretty much with just a E303 cam. aint shit to me, i still have a ways to go though

---

yes, it's a stock 4v with b heads, no headers or anything, stock manifolds...but it does rev to 7k rpm's just fine.

---

Nothin wrong with the B heads...They still make plenty of power IMO...Bone stock, most 5.0's only make like 195rwhp, so I would say 250hp stock is a huge difference...

---

true, but my `89 feels like an absolute monster in comparison to the `97

I haven't driven the `89 in a few weeks, just drove it around for a few minutes and I was all over the place, completely different car
 

---

Posted by Jessie P (Member # 7073) on :
 
The pushrods are known for more torque for there era. 4v's tend to loose alittle on the torque factor but thats nothing some gears won't take care of.
 

---

Posted by JohnB (Member # 969) on :
 
What they (4v) lack in torque they make up in effective RPM range.
 

---

Posted by Eddie510- (Member # 2354) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EPIKMACH:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by F8LSN8K:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

hope its stock? doesnt seem like much, my pushrod made like 250rwhp pretty much with just a E303 cam. aint shit to me, i still have a ways to go though

---

yes, it's a stock 4v with b heads, no headers or anything, stock manifolds...but it does rev to 7k rpm's just fine.

---

Nothin wrong with the B heads...They still make plenty of power IMO...Bone stock, most 5.0's only make like 195rwhp, so I would say 250hp stock is a huge difference...

---

true, but my `89 feels like an absolute monster in comparison to the `97

I haven't driven the `89 in a few weeks, just drove it around for a few minutes and I was all over the place, completely different car

---

Thats because foxes are better
 

---

Posted by PWR HNGRY 302 (Member # 6000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddie510-:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EPIKMACH:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by F8LSN8K:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie P:
If your looking to make alot of power ditch the 2v and go 4v.

---

I wouldn't say it's a lot of power, but my 4v swapped 97gt makes ~250rwhp, and it cost me very little money.

---

hope its stock? doesnt seem like much, my pushrod made like 250rwhp pretty much with just a E303 cam. aint shit to me, i still have a ways to go though

---

yes, it's a stock 4v with b heads, no headers or anything, stock manifolds...but it does rev to 7k rpm's just fine.

---

Nothin wrong with the B heads...They still make plenty of power IMO...Bone stock, most 5.0's only make like 195rwhp, so I would say 250hp stock is a huge difference...

---

true, but my `89 feels like an absolute monster in comparison to the `97

I haven't driven the `89 in a few weeks, just drove it around for a few minutes and I was all over the place, completely different car

---

Thats because foxes are better

---

FOX
 

---

Posted by Blind (Member # 3052) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnB:
What they (4v) lack in torque they make up in effective RPM range.

---

that's true, I love driving the 97 even without the torque, but it just feels completely different than the fox, everything feels "softer" when I'm driving, like I'm more removed from the car, but it's not necessarily a bad thing, especially since it's my daily.
 

---

Posted by 92stangLX (Member # 3252) on :
 
Here's what I would do

1. Gears
2. Sub frames
3. springs and shocks
4. short shifter
5. exhaust
6. plenum
7. pullies
8. BLOWER
 

---